iac v acol hand 7 1st set: opinions please

[wackojack]

All vul I was the dealer and passed
  K9542
  Q72
  K
  J862

Then:
1 - (1 ) - 3 - (?)
I was tempted to compete to 3 . Then I decided that this could easily go 2 off if partner has made the 1 level overcall on no more than  AKxxx and an outsde ace.
So I passed. Then it went:
1 - (1 ) - 3 - (pass)
pass - (3 ) - pass - (?)
I think that I should have bitten the bullet and raised to 4 .  Instead I passed because I was obsessed by partner's failure to double. 

First of all what would a double here be showing?  To my mind a double here is a "power double)  It is saying:  Partner I have maximum strength for my overcall and if you do not have support for my hearts we could have a good penalty.  And if you do have support for my hearts then if you have  just a few points we are likley to have game in hearts. 

Partner's hand was:
  A86
  K98643
  A84
  A
As can be seen 4 is an excellent contract and is made easily.  I apologised to partner for being chicken.  Nevertheless, is partner's rebid of 3 the best bid?  Had the heart suit been only a 5 carder I think that there is no question that the power double is better.  Partner's broken 6 card suit is very risky to overcall at the 3 level vulnerable and maybe double would still have been a better bid as it gives me more options.

Of course had partner doubled, then with 3 card support I would obviously raise to 4 .

Opinions please?

[jcreech]

Jack - sometimes I believe you overthink the situation, but then I also believe that I underthink similar situations.  In this case, I would knee-jerk a courtesy raise, based partly on the feeling that the opponent's jump raise was jerking my chain (successfully, at that).

Given your passing the first go-round, I would raise to four because I have a much better hand and fit than partner expects, and I also tend to overcall rather than double with a singleton or void in an unbid suit if I also hold a 5 or 6 bagger.  Just my tuppence for the morning.

[Masse24]

I think your actions were reasonable . . . though close.

Also, you had the misfortune of running into an opening bid of 1 . At our table, I sat west and passed this: QT7 AT5 QJT92 Q9. (I do not open quacky, flat 11 HCP hands.) This gave the opps an unimpeded auction and they bid game. So give me a piece of the blame.

FWIW, I agree with Pat's overcall. That hand is not worth a double.

Also, it's hard to know the K is carrying any weight at all, so I understand the first pass. But after your partner rebids 3 , showing roughly what she had--a max overcall with six-plus hearts--now the raise becomes a bit more clear. 

[kenberg]

As you folks were toughing out the hands I was watching grandchildren, ages 2, almost 4 and almost 7 playing in the park. But I will comment.

There are always two questions. What means what, and what should one do?

1D-(1H)-3D is, I suppose, preemptive.
1D-(1H)-3D-X is responsive? Let's assume so, although I suppose ti could be a version of maximal, and then 3H would be to play.

1D-(1H)-3D-Pass
Pass -X

The X by pvercaller means what? Sometimes it is called "Do something intelligent". I prefer "Do your best". Asking for intelligence is too risky.
Mostly I think that if the auction goes

1D-(1H)-3D-Pass
Pass -X

then the doubler had better be prepared for partner to choose 4C as his best, aka his intelligent, choice. I'm not up for 4C with my stiff club, even if it is an A.

So those are my understandings of "What means what?"

As to "Who should do what?" that's a bit tough.
The heart overall on the first round seems clear. No way I would double and then bid hearts on that.
The pass over 3D is close, for reasons already mentioned. I might pass, I might bid 3H. I would not blame myself or a partner for doing either.

After
1D-(1H)-3D-Pass
Pass -(3H)-Pass
would I bid 4H?
I think so, or at least maybe. It's often a bad idea to punish pard for competing and that's an argument for passing. As the cards lie, it appears that 11 tricks can be made in hearts, which suggests that we should somehow get to 4H. But it's a hand where we should accept pard's choices. Nothing is clear-cut.

For amusement, I will now post a hand I played in an acbl game earlier today.

S: J5
H: KQT
D: J963
C: KJ72

Mps, red against white, righty opens 3D,  I pass, lefty passes, pard jumps to 4H. Righty passes, coward that I am I pass, lefty, bless him, bids 5D and pard doubles.

So:
3D-Pass -Pass-4H
Pass -Pass-5D-X
Pass-?

Ok, pard is not doubling on his D holding, he must have outside aces, I bid 6H. They can hold it to 12 tricks on a D lead but pard got a club lead and brought in 13 tricks.

Is passing first and then bidding 6H crazy? Maybe so but it worked out.

The situation is a bit like the current posting. Not clear what's right, or at least not clear to me.

Ok, more company on its way. The grandkids were a kick. Exhausting but a kick.

[wackojack]

Thanks all for your thoughts.  OK forget the actual hands. 

Question:
1 - (1 ) - 3 - (pass)
pass - (?)
What type of hand bids 3 ?
What type of hand doubles?  I assume all believe it to be a take-out double.   

[jcreech]

With the new parameters:

I bid 3 with
  a. six (broken honors or better, e.g., headed by AJ, KQ, KJT) or five (near solid or better, e.g., AKQT, AKJT),
  b. an prime-filled 13 to a quackish 18, and
  c. at least one unbid suit M.I.A. (Qx or worse).

I double with
  a. better versions of above, where I feel I have a chance of success if I have to pull partner's bid back to hearts opposite air, or
  b. variations of above but with three-card or better support for all the unbid suits.

If this seems vague, I agree.  In some ways, I feel that questions like these are in the realm of paraphrasing U.S. Supreme Court Justice Stewart's discourse on pornography - I will know a 3 bid (or double) when I see it.  Yet I also know that my decision in the moment will also be guided by external factors, such as state of the match, my own state of mind, table feel, and the like, so given the same hand, the same auction, same vulnerability, I may make different decisions.

[kenberg]

My view is similar to the above. Basically, a double of 3 means "I am not letting them play 3 undoubled". And yes, it is expected thatpard will pull to something.

1 - (1 ) - 3 - (pass)
pass - (?)
A double requires partner to make a choice. You need to decide if you are apt to be happy with that choice. To think that through, it does matter what conventions we are playing. Partner did not make a responsive double over 3 . Perhaps this is because we are not playing that
1 - (1 ) - 3 - (X)
is responsive. The point is that partner's pass, together with our agreements, says something about what he has or hasn't got and so says something about how he will respond to a double. We want to think about that. Maybe we want to take a chance, that's the way bridge is, but we can think a little about what pard will do when we double.

With the actual hand overcaller had a three card diamond suit. The opening 1 was preemptively raised to 3 after the overcall.  Overcaller can suppose that partner is short in diamonds although perhaps that 1 opening was on a 4=4=3=2 shape. Depends on what agreements the opponents have. Acolers probably open a 4=4=3=2 shape with 1 or maybe 1 , or of course maybe 1NT. Anyway, we assume, probably correctly, pard is short in diamonds. If he is also short in hearts, why didn't he make a responsive double, assuming we are playing responsive doubles in that sequence. Well, maybe he is 3=2=2=6. Or 3=2=1=7. Or some such.

I could go on. If overcaller holds three s then after the preemptive raise it is likely that opener has only four diamonds [I just looked, opener had five diamonds, preempted four, unxepcted but it still gives pard of the overcaller a stiff]. What do we make of the fact he opened 1 instead of 1NT? I guess we should check the range of an opening NT call, and then assume opener probably falls outside that range [It seems, from looking at the boards, they were playing strong NT].

But of course we are not given this much time to think. In the finals of the BB, maybe we get to think all this through, but not in casual games. So we go with the short version. Double means partner has to choose what to do and we had better be prepared for whatever choice he makes. When overcaller holds three diamonds he can pretty well bet that pard's choice will not be to leave the double in.

As to what 3 (by overcaller) means, it's got to be at least a bit on a hope and a prayer. It's a hand that is not worth doubling and then bidding hearts, so 3 is hoping for the best. Again, if a direct double of 3 would have been responsive then overcaller can be a bit more confident that pard has a couple of hearts. Either that or very long clubs.



X by overcaller says "Pard, you choose, do your best", X says "Pard, I choose this, I hope it's right"

[Masse24]

Getting back to overcaller's hand, I doubt I would make the 3 call with that heart suit. I would want more muscle in the presumed trump suit to be assured of setting up tricks. So maybe if I exchanged the A with a small heart. And added a Ten. AKT986? The hand shown has the right values, not the right suit.

To double rather than 3 ?

Something like 4=5=0=4 or 4=5=1=3 or possibly 3=5=1=4? But with the values to justify it. Maybe 15-16 HCP?

[wackojack]

Thankyou for these judgements.  Could I be so bold as to sum them up with (albeit with some hedging) After making a 1 overcall
3 = distributions overcall
double = highcard points overcall.

Of course the dividing line is a matter of opinion.
However, it would give me more guidance as whether to pass for penalties, sign off in 3!h or raise to 4!h 

[kenberg]

Thankyou for these judgements.  Could I be so bold as to sum them up with (albeit with some hedging) After making a 1 overcall
3 = distributions overcall
double = highcard points overcall.

Of course the dividing line is a matter of opinion.
However, it would give me more guidance as whether to pass for penalties, sign off in 3!h or raise to 4!h

Yep, that's probably fair enough. I still like 3 ="I'll decide", X= "You decide".  But it probably comes to about the same thing. And Pass="I decided".

There is a lot of stuff that goes into this, imps or mps, vul or not, and other stuff. So yeah, the dividing line can be a matter of opinion.