Author Topic: upsetting a DARE lesson?  (Read 1850 times)

blubayou

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upsetting a DARE lesson?
« on: October 12, 2021, 02:22:14 AM »
onOCT. 11th 'DARE'   there was deal one as follows:  Apparently it was not intended to be a DARE TO DEFEND problem,  as the opening lead was specified, but i believe there was a findable defense to break the 3NT contract; see what you think.....         North:    ATx
                                                       AKQ
                     West:     Q97               A8x        KJ865
                                   98xx             K874       JTx
                                   KT2                             J9x
                                   JTx                32           Qx
                                                        xxx
                                                        Q543
                                                         A9xx


The lesson plan mandated 4th best spade won by west's Q and continued, then east clearing the suit to big guy's ace.   The gold stars went to norths thst took all his/her herts then banged out the clubs   catching west to lead out to  the diamondqueen after collecting the thirteener heart  ( 1 spade, 3 hearts, 3 clubs,  and [WHEW]  TWO diamonds == nine..


   veere had a better idea, and i wonder if it is an absolute killer...:
often it is better to beg forgiveness, than ask permission

jcreech

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Re: upsetting a DARE lesson?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2021, 11:29:28 AM »
                                          North:    ATx
                                                       AKQ
                     West:     Q97               A8x        KJ865
                                   98xx             K874       JTx
                                   KT2                             J9x
                                   JTx                32           Qx
                                                        xxx
                                                        Q543
                                                         A9xx


The lesson plan mandated 4th best spade won by west's Q and continued, then east clearing the suit to big guy's ace.   The gold stars went to norths thst took all his/her herts then banged out the clubs   catching west to lead out to  the diamondqueen after collecting the thirteener heart  ( 1 spade, 3 hearts, 3 clubs,  and [WHEW]  TWO diamonds == nine..


   veere had a better idea, and i wonder if it is an absolute killer...:

If you are suggesting that Vee, upon winning the second spade, shifted to the !D J, to set up two defensive diamonds, and then wait for the club.  Then yes, she found a killing defense.  Whether it is findable at the table by most defenders is certainly questionable. 

The argument against is, the spades will set up and the  !C Q could become an entry.  The argument against is, even though the spades set up,  the !C Q is unlikely to become an entry, but if partner has Jxx in clubs, that might turn into an endplay card, so I need to lead a diamond to ruin the endplay.  To break up the endplay, partner needs to hold KTx(x), so I need to lead the J to clue partner into the situation. 

If I were scoring the event, I would still give full credit to the declarer if the defender found this defense.  But I would give extra kudos to the defender for finding the surrounding play that defeats the contract legitimately.  A well deserved wd to Vee, if this was her defense, and a thank you to Jock for bringing this to IAC's attention. 
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 11:31:17 AM by jcreech »
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kenberg

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Re: upsetting a DARE lesson?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2021, 09:04:28 PM »
I was the declarer on this.
 Gib notes that it can always be set but yes, the defense was interesting.

                                                       ATx
                                                       AKQ
                                                       A8x       
                                                       K874     

                                                     
                                          Q97                     KJ865
                                          98xx                    JTx
                                          KT2                      J9x
                                         JTx                        Qx

                                                       32           
                                                        xxx
                                                       Q543
                                                        A9xx
 
T1: The spade 6 went to the Q, ducked.
T2: H9 led. I tool it with the A, perhaps the K would have been a better choice.
What to do?

I decided that if Lho had five spades (he does) and the diamond Q (he doesn't, then I am fine as long as I can take three clubs, so I played the AK of cubs and when everyone followed I played another club. Rho won this, as Rho pitched the spade 5, presumably confirming that he started with five.

Now the spade 9 from Rho.

                                                       AT
                                                       KQ
                                                       A8x       
                                                       8     

                                                     
                                          97                       KJ8
                                          8xx                      JT
                                          KT2                      J9x
                                                                     

                                                       3         
                                                        xx
                                                       Q543
                                                        9

I need to go but I will come back to this. For now, not that if we switch the DK over to me LhO, and any other D then back to my Rho, I can now make this.Up with the spade A, cash club, cash hearts. lead the spade T, endplaying my Lho.

Well, best laid plans and all that.

More later, must go now.
 
Ken

kenberg

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Re: upsetting a DARE lesson?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2021, 04:59:58 PM »
                                          North:    ATx
                                                       AKQ
                     West:     Q97               A8x        KJ865
                                   98xx             K874       JTx
                                   KT2                             J9x
                                   JTx                32           Qx
                                                        xxx
                                                        Q543
                                                         A9xx


The lesson plan mandated 4th best spade won by west's Q and continued, then east clearing the suit to big guy's ace.   The gold stars went to norths thst took all his/her herts then banged out the clubs   catching west to lead out to  the diamondqueen after collecting the thirteener heart  ( 1 spade, 3 hearts, 3 clubs,  and [WHEW]  TWO diamonds == nine..


   veere had a better idea, and i wonder if it is an absolute killer...:

If you are suggesting that Vee, upon winning the second spade, shifted to the !D J, to set up two defensive diamonds, and then wait for the club.  Then yes, she found a killing defense.  Whether it is findable at the table by most defenders is certainly questionable. 

The argument against is, the spades will set up and the  !C Q could become an entry.  The argument against is, even though the spades set up,  the !C Q is unlikely to become an entry, but if partner has Jxx in clubs, that might turn into an endplay card, so I need to lead a diamond to ruin the endplay.  To break up the endplay, partner needs to hold KTx(x), so I need to lead the J to clue partner into the situation. 

If I were scoring the event, I would still give full credit to the declarer if the defender found this defense.  But I would give extra kudos to the defender for finding the surrounding play that defeats the contract legitimately.  A well deserved wd to Vee, if this was her defense, and a thank you to Jock for bringing this to IAC's attention.


As mentioned, I declared this, receiving the spade lead and the heart switch. Not that if spades are continued at T2, and if I play the T, my Lho wins and is free to shift to a D. Is he apt to? Probably not but the auction has been NT-3C-3D-3NT (regular Stayman, not Puppet). Let's call me North (since I am). Assume T2 is another spade, my T,  E's J. Ecan surely place me with an initial spade holding of ATx. W would hardly dold on to the A, blocking the suit, and I am know to hold at most three spades so that's that, I started with ATx. N is also known to hold a 20 9or 21) count from the auction (sure, some fake a point, but DARE hands rarely if ever include that). E has seen the spade Q so he knows W has at most 4 more points.

E can ask himself what these points are and whether he will be getting in again, assuming that he, E, continues spades.. Not likely, as you say.
Maybe W holds the C K. W holds the C K
E's clubs are actually Q3, not something like QT so he can expect that if W holds the club K then declarer can lead a small club from hand and, if E plays low, declarer will lose a club to W. Further, if W holds the club K then he will not be holing the D K,  so he has D tricks at hand.
And if W holds the H K it's even worse for the defense since it will be finessable and N will be holding both minor suit kings.

Thus, if the play begins spade to the Q, spade back to my T and E's J, E needs to place W with the diamond T.

The case for a D switch is hardly airtight, but it is looking better. The defense has two spades, it now tries for two Ds and a club.

Possible. I agree not clear cut, but possible


The actual effect of the heart switch at T2 was this: I now have time to play for nine tricks by assuming the D K is on my left. It isn't, but I have a decent play for nine tricks if it is. Probably best if, at T3, I lead a small D. Assuming the D K is on my left I now have a reasonable shot at nine tricks.

So after spade and a spade, a third spade pretty much forces me to play for the D K to be on my right, where it is. The H switch allows me to play for it to be where it isn't, on my left.

An intersting hand.


Ken

blubayou

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Re: upsetting a DARE lesson?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2021, 02:22:00 PM »
Oops--  i should have phrased my concerns better :(
    i challenge someone to make 9 tricks,  with the hands open,  after spade to the queen and a heart nine (?)shift at trick two.   As i saw it,  the magic of this is that Veeree (WEST) still has her second spade to exit with after 3 rounds of hearts and 3 rounds of clubs.     But just now  i see declarer's answer to this is to TAKE the spade ace as well,  and then the intended lesson position  is reached when west eats the club jack.  The Dentist's Coup   lol.
  So now,  the spotlight shifts back to the case where east, after winning 2nd spade realizes that his hand is dead and finds the shift to [any] diamond, declarer ducking to his ace?   The previous play of 3 top hearts, then club-club-club to west's jack is no good now because opps now have five cashers,  and the still existing endplay giving dummy the diamond queen collides with declarer's ace. 
  The answer to this is obvious --  CASH that ace earlier.   but when, exactly  is left to our reader-- there is still a trap!   
   An interesting hand indeed--  summoning the Dentist's Coup,  Clyde Loves  beloved  SURPLUS WINNER SQUEEZE, as well as the lessons slightly mundane strip  theme.
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kenberg

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Re: upsetting a DARE lesson?
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2021, 01:42:10 PM »
By "open" I assume you mean double dummy. Played double dummy, I don't see any difference between, one one hand,  starting the hand with a spade to the Q, another spade to the T and J, versus, on the other hand, a spade to the Q, a heart to the A, and then the spade T to the J.

When in with the spade J, the hand can be beaten with a diamond switch. The hand can be made on the endplay without the diamond switch.

Played siingle dummy, the heart switch at T2 provides declarer with losing options that would be unavailable if spades were continued at T2 and T3. I jumped right into the losing option.

It's interesting both as declarer play and as defensive play. Possibly I should have said to myself after the heart switch "Why were spades not continued?" Perhaps I could answer myself "Because my Rho has enough strength so that on the auction she can see that there will be no entry to the spades, even if they are established". I did not have that conversation with myself and, later, apologized to myself. The apology was accepted.
Ken

blubayou

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Re: upsetting a DARE lesson?
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2021, 03:24:58 PM »
the difference is  :  in the event, as in live play,  5 out of 6 easts cleared their suit if it was returned at trick two.
   partners "refusal"  to return spades will/should wake most of them up to the need for helping partner's hand with the troublesome diamond shift.  The possibility of DECLARER "helping" him get the spades back on track  when partner did not do so just SCREAMS  "don't do this!!"......
  It is nevertheless declarer's winning move --  as a preparation for the surplus winner squeeze that saves him   <more after breakfast>

Yum breakfast!  hash-browns, real (and turkey-, for my wife) bacon, English muffins with marmalade, and 6 eggs worth of Denver omlet
        Here is the master plan to glory AFTER 1> low S to queen, 2>heart 9 shift,  3> spade duched to leftie's jack, 4>  any diamond  [J 9, or low] [dummy ducking] to our ACE.
                                                     

                                   A
                                   AK
              9                  xx                  Kxx
              8xx               K87x               xx
              K10                                     9x
              J10x              x                    Qx
                                  x
                                  Qxx
                                  A9xx
  The defense has two spades in the bag, andnow WILL get 1D and 1C  but the 3-cardheart length is messing up the needed endplay, so now declarer must play his third spade", squeezing righty out of that thirteener.  Then the lesson's plan works out provided the top hearts are also cashed.  If west keeps the three hearts,  he must stiff the diamond king and declarer must and will guess that,  but the fun isn't over!  do we still have a heart stopper or two left,  or did we cash em all prematurely?  the 'Surplus winner squeeze' must have an answer remaining for whether the squeezee parts with the diamond ten, OR  the long heart, else when thrown in with his side's 3rd trick  he will have diam. king AND the long heart cashable.
      if GIB says this 3NT is cold after a low spade lead,  it is some smart robot.  How come it is such an idiot at the table, eh?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2021, 09:20:49 PM by blubayou »
often it is better to beg forgiveness, than ask permission