Author Topic: Doubles, responsive and maximal  (Read 1698 times)

kenberg

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Doubles, responsive and maximal
« on: June 25, 2020, 05:24:27 PM »
During today's squeeze session a bidding question arose. The lesson was squeezes so no need to take the bidding up there, but it's worth a look later.

Rho opens 1 !H, I overcall 1 !S, and Lho bids a preemptive 3 !H. If partner were to double (didn't happen on  this hand) then what should I make of the X?

So: 1 !H - (1 !S) - 3 !H - (X) , the X means?

I am interested in the views of my fellow IACers.

Some variants:

1 !H - (1 !S) - 2 !H - (X). I think that most people play this as responsive: Enough to contest the auction but with length in the minors.

Or

1 !S - (2 !H) - 2 !S - (3 !H)
X

This is often played as maximal.  A call of 3 !S, as opposed to X, would be to play, not invitational at all. The X invites 4 !S from responder. Usually this is played specifically when the overcalled suit is just below opener's suit, so there is no room to make up an intervening bid to invite.

There are differences in the auctions, the main one being that in the second case trumps have been set. We either will be letting them play in !H or we will be playing in !S. We would like to have a way to sign off in 3 !S and we would like to have a way to invite 4 !S, and the maximal double does this. So, in the second auction, the X invites 4 !S.

In the first auction, !S have not yet been set as trump. This at least makes it possible to treat the X as showing the minors. The main downside is that  this is not going to come up very often. From advancer's viewpoint: Lho opened 1 !H, his pard overcalled a !S, his Rho bid 3 !H, is he really going to be thinking "Gee, I think we should lay this in a minor at the 4 level"? Sometimes yes, usually not.

But simplicity is useful with all of the conventions out there, and it seems to me that when trumps are set and they bid and raise the suit just below ours at the 3 level then we play maximal doubles, and if trumps have not been set then we want X as responsive, showing possession of the other two suits. Or, just as a crazy idea, it could be played for penalties. Nah, nobody wants to do that anymore.

At any rate, if we have agreed to play responsive doubles through 3 !S then,unless we have made this case an exception, I would take 1 !H - 1 !S - 3 !H - X as responsive.
 

Still, I hope for comments from others.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2020, 05:29:24 PM by kenberg »
Ken

wackojack

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Re: Doubles, responsive and maximal
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2020, 07:30:58 PM »
Yes  Ken I think this is a neglected topic.  Here are my views on each sequence:

1 !H - (1 !S) - 3 !H -(x)
I think this is best used a a Rosenkranz double and not a responsive double.  Overcaller is unlikely to have a 4 card minor suit to compete in.  Much more use would be for the double to show Ax or Kx support for spades. 

!H -(1 !S) - 2 !H - (x)
This could be either responsive or Rosenkranz according to agreement.

!S -(2 !H) -2  !S -(3 !H)
dbl
Yes this has to be a maximal double because there is no room for a trial bid. So 3  !S would be "to play" and not an invite to 4  !S.   

Also what about when the opening side bid 2 different suits? 
1 !C - (1 !H) -1 !S -(dbl)
This would widely be accepted as "Snapdragon" showing a 4 card spade suit and some tolerance for hearts.  So could also be a RosenKrantz double but not neceesarily so. The level to which Snapdragon should go is another matter for agreement.

kenberg

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Re: Doubles, responsive and maximal
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2020, 10:09:21 PM »
I think snapdragons are good but again it needs discussion. The wikipedia says:
" It is a call of double by fourth hand, when three different suits have been bid by the first three players and shows a good holding in the fourth suit (generally six cards, though some partnerships allow five) and tolerance for partner's suit."
I have generally thought of it as showing five.
I then looked up Washington Standard (Steve Robinson). His thought is that after 1 !C - 1 !D - 1 !S a double shows hearts, usually five (and !D tolerance), and a hand not strong enough to simply bid 2 !H,  but 1 !C - 1 !D - 1 !H -X is only four cards in !S since it is at the one level. With five spades you just bid the spades.

I expect other views are lying around somewhere.


As to 1 !H - (1 !S) - 3 !H -(x) as Rosenkranz. This also would have to be used sparingly.  If partner overcalled on !S AQJxx and an outside K somewhere, what is he to do? He needs more from partner than the !S K to make 3 !S and he probably also needs more than the !S K to beat 3 !H X. So the doubler needs extras and the partnership needs to be on the same wavelength as to just how much extra can be expected.

I have never played Rosenkranz doubles so I am not  sure, and that's an understatement,  just what else besides a fitting honor is expected. Playing 3 !S in a 5-2 fit is tough so I suppose the X promises enough defense to make it likely that 3 !H X can be defeated, even if that 1 !S was on not all that much.  It's true that defeating 3 !H is more likely if we get the !S lead from !S AQJxx. In short, overcaller has to know when he should pull to 3 !S, when he should sit.

Added: I was thinking a bit more about 1 !H - (1 !S) - 3 !H . Presumably the opponents have at least 9 hearts between them and so we have at most four. With twenty-two non-hearts we must have at least an eight card fit in at least one suit. The problem is that we don't know where. That's why preempts work, of course. But now suppose the X over 3 !H shows either Kx or Ax as you suggest. Then when overcaller has exactly five spades he knows the fit is not in spades so he knows that there is a fit in one of the minors. They still have to find which minor and they still have to be prepared to play at the four level if they don't want to play in their 5-2 fit or defend 3 !H X. When pvercaller has six spades, as he sometimes will, he can then just rebid 3 !S.

I am thinking that no matter what the X means it is not going to be used that often. I'm inclined to keep it as responsive just for simplicity. After they bid and raise to the 3 level in the suit below ours, then if trumps have been set our way the X is maximal, but if trumps have not yet been set our way the X is responsive showing the other two suits. But I can see other agreements could be useful.

Bottom line: If a pair has agreed to play responsive doubles through 3 !S then they should discuss just what they mean by this agreement.

Fwiw, BWS says "Among advancer's actions when responder raises opener: a double is not for penalty (for takeout or showing general values, depending on level)." This is pretty brief, more is needed.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 10:23:23 AM by kenberg »
Ken

jcreech

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Re: Doubles, responsive and maximal
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2020, 10:43:55 AM »
My general rule of thumb is that:

If the opponents have bid and raised, my partner has doubled or overcalled, and we are still within the upper boundary of our agreed range for responsive doubles, then it is a responsive double - with at least two four card suits.

If my partner or I have opened, the responder has made a limit bid, and the opponents have eliminated our room to make a trial bid or game try,  then double is maximal.  The corollary to this is that if there is still a bid available, say our agreed upon suit is spades, the opponents last bid was 3 !D, then 3 !H becomes artificial and a last train game try.

As for Rosenkrantz and Snapdragon, I only had two partners that I played those with (and it was a long time ago), so in a general discussion, I do not consider those options.

A stairway to nowhere is better than no stairway at all.  -Kehlog Albran