Author Topic: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB  (Read 3785 times)

hoki

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Re: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2020, 09:29:43 AM »
Problem A: Why would 4NT not be interpreted as key card in hearts?
What else could I do with 20-ish points and a six-card heart suit?

Oliver

hoki

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Re: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2020, 09:32:20 AM »
PROBLEM A: 4 Clubs
PROBLEM B: Redouble
PROBLEM C: 1 Spade
PROBLEM D: (b2)
PROBLEM E: Pass
PROBLEM F: Double
PROBLEM G: 3 Spades
PROBLEM H: Diamond Ace

jcreech

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Re: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2020, 11:18:40 AM »
     
     
     Re Problem A: 
     I don't think I want to bid slam unless I have all of the aces, so my actual bid will be 4 !C
     
     I have too much to not try.
     

     Jim,
     Apparently you're intending this as Gerber?
     
     I can't imagine BWS would treat it as such. Natural makes more sense. Maybe rethink this?
     

I'm not sure why it wouldn't be Gerber.  It qualifies as a first or last NT.  It can't be Stayman when partner had the opportunity to make a negative double.  Natural is the other most likely use of the bid.  I doubt that BWS would take away all ace asking possibilities when your hand is unlimited.  Now Hoki has an answer to my doubt:

     
     Problem A: Why would 4NT not be interpreted as key card in hearts?
     What else could I do with 20-ish points and a six-card heart suit?
     
     Oliver
     

Nonetheless, in the absence of discussion, I would treat 4NT is quantitative.

I will continue to give this problem additional thought and try to make sense of my possible bids.
A stairway to nowhere is better than no stairway at all.  -Kehlog Albran

Masse24

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Re: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2020, 02:54:32 PM »
I only mention it because to play 4 !C after 3NT (no jump) would be a highly unusual expert agreement (in my opinion). There are reams of material on this on the forums.

While there are frequent disagreements about what is (and what is not) Gerber, the above is almost universally panned by experts. This is usually described as either natural, or some sort of slam try.

Reviewing BWS, the following are considered Gerber:
1NT – 4 !C
2NT – 4 !C
1x – 1y – 1NT – 4 !C
1x – 1y – 2NT – 4 !C
2 !C – 2x – 2NT – 4 !C

There is no mention of 4 !C over 3NT.

I find 4 !C here to be an interesting call. It is my belief that partner has denied a five card !C suit. He has also denied three !H (in my opinion).
I dunno. 4 !C is certainly a good way (even as a generic slam move) to elicit more information if we think slam possible.

Is it?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 03:12:42 PM by Masse24 »
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kenberg

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Re: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2020, 03:53:30 PM »
in discussion with a pard, i sugest that 4 !C is Gerber if and only if two conditions are satisfied. It is a jump to 4 !C and it is immediately over a natural NT. That's the default, allowing for other specific discussed cases.
For example one could play, and at times I have played, that 1NT - 2 !C - 2M - 4 !C is Roman Key Card Gerber with M as trump. With discussion, fine, without discussion I take it as a splinter in support of M.  I think  from previous posts that BWS plays it as Key Card Gerber.
One of the benefits of this whole MSC thing is to get discussions going as to when what bid means what.

I have an old copy of Kantar's book on Conventions somewhere. I recall that he discussed what happens after an opening 2NT.  Start with 3 !C being Stayman or Puppet Stayman. Now suppose 4 !C is Gerber. Sometimes we are dealt clubs and we wish to bid clubs. Ok, we could use 3 !S to show clubs. But wait, we are sometimes dealt diamonds and we wish to show diamonds. Sometimes we are dealy both minors. Usually, or I think usually, 2NT - 3 !S is Minor Suit Stayman.

There is no completely satisfactory answer to all of this. Fortunately, most of the problems don't arise often so we just need something that we agree to. Hence my conditions on Gerber: It's a jump immediately over a natural NT. That doesn't have to be an opening NT. 1 !C - 1M- 1NT - 4 !C is Gerber,  the 1NT was natural the 4 !C is a jump.

I imagine expert partnerships have a more detailed agreement but this seems to take care of most things that actually arise.

The current problem would be perhaps an exception, I can't ask for aces. Otoh, I am not so sure I am satisfied with knowing that we have three aces.
Ken

blubayou

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Re: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2020, 02:55:19 AM »
problem A:>>   (Naturally)      The mentors  have convinced me that dropping 3NT  is an underbid.  They  propose that pard has FOUR spades, not Kx or Kxx, else there would be a minor to bid first or a 13-pt neg couble, if 4-4 or 4-5.   Now, if we put Kxxx, 10x, AQxx Axx  across from my AQxx, AKJxx, x, Kxx,   that leaves the overcaller with  an awesome  Jxxxx  (JTxxx?),  Qxx, KJx, QJ.    Asking partner if he has more than such a 13-count,  or a 13-count with some kickers [ like major tens ]  requires that the overcaller to have even uglier an overcall,  but so be it.   Raising 3NT  can't hurt even though  "I know"  he will not have a drop extras.       Changing my problem A  from pass to raise  (4NT).   
                                              As for "no choice-1NT"  on problem B,  I am standing firm on this one.  I cannot ever remember bidding 2C on this or similar auctions  in 45 years, which for me is more in the "rescue/ obstructive" category.    Redouble is fine,  but it will only led to a swamp of forcing passes leading to flailing guesses   UNLESS pard has a hand that knows exactly what to do with a free 1NT after opps' double.  Redoubles  don't make any money when neither of us will be having 4 in whatever opponents slink off to,   so it is the 3--3 majors that rule it out for me--  not the 'missing' 10th point.
       problemD:>>   How do we get to PLAY  2D in our 62-2 [1?]  diamond fit?   the good old way whick is  to bid respond 1NT, and change 2C  to 2D  is OUT,  thanks to BART (see _____'s research above).     So,  hat leaves me with the passed-hand 2 diamond bid.   I am told  that if I BART this hand, and pard comes through  with the 3rd bid  of 2 Hearts,  I cannot be SURE that  that shows three  (wtf??)   besides which  these are not dream cards to be playing a 3-4 trump contract,   I don't recall  digging this far down  for a 2-level response before,  but look --  it IS 2 points shy of a sketchy one-opening,  so,  2D  is my vote.

« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 01:07:09 AM by blubayou »
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bAbsG

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Re: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2020, 05:23:53 PM »
SOLVER: Babs Giesbrecht
       Qualicum Beach BC
       Canada

Your Solutions for the July 2020 Contest 
-------------------
PROBLEM A: 4 Notrump
PROBLEM B: 2 Clubs
PROBLEM C: 1 Spade
PROBLEM D: (b3)
PROBLEM E: Pass
PROBLEM F: Pass
PROBLEM G: 3 Diamonds
PROBLEM H: Club 2

Masse24

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Re: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2020, 08:06:14 PM »
Anyone have any words of wisdom on PROBLEM E?
 
I could go with any of about four answers -- none of them based on a moment of clarity. I usually have some clue. Not here.

Help?  :-\
“Kindness is the only service that will stand the storm of life and not wash out. It will wear well and will be remembered long after the prism of politeness or the complexion of courtesy has faded away.” Abraham Lincoln

jcreech

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Re: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2020, 08:31:00 PM »
Anyone have any words of wisdom on PROBLEM E?
 
I could go with any of about four answers -- none of them based on a moment of clarity. I usually have some clue. Not here.

Help?  :-\

Blu says Pass
Hoki says Pass
Babs says Pass
I say Pass

So obviously, as a contrarian, you must exclude that option and now you are down to three choices.  I have just resolved 25% of your angst.   ;D

A stairway to nowhere is better than no stairway at all.  -Kehlog Albran

Masse24

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Re: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2020, 09:03:12 PM »
Jim,

I was hoping for something more than the lemming argument. You offer me the anti-lemming argument. I suppose. It's certainly as good as any of the ideas I had formulated. The best was, "why bid higher and get into deeper trouble?"  ::)
“Kindness is the only service that will stand the storm of life and not wash out. It will wear well and will be remembered long after the prism of politeness or the complexion of courtesy has faded away.” Abraham Lincoln

kenberg

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Re: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2020, 01:22:12 AM »
Problem E: 1 !C - 1 !H - Pass - ? If I were to bid I would intend the bid as constructive and expect it to be interpreted as constructive. The old axiom is "Don't rescue a partner who has not been doubled". So is the hand worth a constructive 1 !S call? I don't really think so. And I don't want a !S lead. I probably don't all that much want !D lead either and anyway the hand is not remotely worth a call at the 2 level. Passing sounds just fine and dandy to me. Neither 1 !S nor 2 !D would be forcing, but partner would think I had something and that might not end well.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 12:41:32 PM by kenberg »
Ken

jcreech

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Re: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2020, 10:19:22 AM »
Todd,

You said you had four choices.  Four of us had already made the same choice, so I presumed it was one of the four on the table.  Since my argument was already on the table


Problem E:  Pass – I want to make a responsive double, but that is inadmissible.  I don’t have the values or shape to do anything but possibly back in later. 


I also presumed it was not sufficient for your purposes, so all I could do is offer a reason to discount the lemming approach (which I endorsed before it became a cascade). 

However, you did not provide, much less expound upon why you like, any of the three other choices you explicitly elude to.  Perhaps if you give their reasons voice, it will help you narrow the choices, or at least give the rest of us a sounding board to either endorse or reject the choices you are battling with.

At least I provided my other choice - a responsive double - and discussed why I would not exercise that choice - inadmissible.  Come on, Todd, this is a forum, where is your beef on this problem?
A stairway to nowhere is better than no stairway at all.  -Kehlog Albran

kenberg

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Re: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2020, 01:04:48 PM »
E: I am happy with my pass, the more I think about it the happier I get. No doubt at least some of the panelists will be explaining why this is wrong.

So I have been thinking about just why Rho passed. Of course he could be broke  but I don't have much and pard's overcall places some limit on his strength. So maybe Lho has a huge hand and is about to bid 1NT on his 18-19 count. Fine, let him. Or maybe Rho has a heart stack and of course could not double for penalty. If Lho doubles to take care of this then my pass, followed by a run, will make the situation pretty clear to partner. Of course maybe Lho will pass it out and 1 !H will be set while 1 !S or 2 !D would make. Could be, but usually opener does not pass out 1 !H so I am comfortable enough taking this chance.  Here is another possibility. Rho might have an 8 or 9 count with diamonds. If he had an 8 or 9 count with spades he would bid them with 5+ or X with 4, if he had an 8 or 9 count with !H stopped but no desire to defend at the 1 level he could bid 1NT, and if he has 8 or 9 with !C he could support !C. But with an 8 or 9 count with !D? Maybe Jxx / xxx / AQxxx / Jx ?  Of course with my six card !D suit this holding seems unlikely. But if so, then Lho will be short in !D and probably , over my pass, will bid 1 !S or 2 !C depending on his shape. Or yes, he might pass.

I am far from sure that 1 !H will be a disaster even if it is passed out and I doubt it will be.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 01:08:23 PM by kenberg »
Ken

blubayou

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Re: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2020, 01:37:04 PM »
Anyone have any words of wisdom on PROBLEM E?
 
I could go with any of about four answers -- none of them based on a moment of clarity. I usually have some clue. Not here.

Help?  :-\

Blu says Pass
Hoki says Pass
Babs says Pass
I say Pass
So obviously, as a contrarian, you must exclude that option and now you are down to three choices.  I have just resolved 25% of your angst.   ;D

    it took two weeks til I noticed  the opps probably have something in clubs  despite the obvious misfits in all other suits.   but  i agree  that either simple new suit bid is more constructive than  I am worth.   So  we are left with THREE diams  as the alternative bid.  Scarey,  yes?   Have we  narrowed the field  down  to a single choice,  or are you going with me  down that rabbit hole?

Edited by jcreech to take Blu's new reasoning out of the jcreech quote
« Last Edit: June 08, 2020, 02:15:30 PM by jcreech »
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kenberg

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Re: 2020 July - MASTER SOLVERS CLUB
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2020, 03:31:26 PM »
From BWS:


After our simple overcall of a one-bid:
(a) A new-suit bid by an unpassed advancer is natural and nonforcing, constructive if an advance of a two-level overcall. (Then: a cue-bid by intervenor is artificial and neither shows nor denies a primary fit for advancer's suit.) A new-suit jump is invitational.

I guess that means I could bid 1 !S w/o it being construed as constructive. I am still not doing it. It definitely rules out 3 !D though. I see weak jump shifts as something the opening side does, not the intervening side. That seems to be the BWS view as well.

I continue to see this thread as very useful for bringing different interpretations to light. As a contest, we take the BWS approach and the it's a matter of judgement. But for applications beyond the contest itself I think the "what means what" aspect is very useful. We have seen it this month both with Gerber and RKC for problem A, and here again in problem E.  In A, I think raising 3NT to 4NT would be invitational tp 6NT, and I think bidding 4 !C over 3NT shows clubs. But am I right?
Ken