Author Topic: Wacko's MSC  (Read 5643 times)

wackojack

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2020, 10:24:47 AM »
E. At game all. partner the dealer opens 1 !C, opponents silent
    !S 10963,  !H AQJ1074,  !D - ,  !C KQ9
   
    1 !C  -  1 !H
    2 !D  -  ??


Why not 3 !H? It's right out of a textbook.

Yes Todd, I agree that 3 !H conveys the best information about responder’s hand trusting partner to make the best decision.  Then if she has 3145 distribution and bids 3NT one could be really scientific and bid 4 !C minorwood if you play that way.   
I confess I was the player who made the 2 !S bid and alerted it as “art forcing”.  I am aware of the “black-out” convention whereby after this particular reverse the 4th suit 2 !S is the cheapest bid below 2NT and therefore should be used to enable a bail-out into 2NT.  Suppose I did have this type of hand then I could pass partner’s obliged 2NT.  If OTOH I had a stronger hand, I could use this relay to 2NT to my advantage and continue bidding.  I don’t know if that was an intended use of “blackout”.  My partner has an extensive knowledge of many artificial bids having absorbed them from her expert mentor so as I type I have just trawled though notes she has sent me.  It appears that "black-out" is included.  We have never discussed this convention and so intended it as an ask to “tell me more”.   
Partner had:
 !S AK5
 !H 9
 !D KQ109
 !C A10876
And I had
 !S 10963,
 !H AQJ1074,
 !D - , 
 !C KQ9

So, if not playing “black-out” her 2NT bid would appear indicate a stop in spades.  Consider now her shape.  Far more likely 3145 than 2245.  I personally hate reversing with that shape and prefer to open 1N with 17 regardless of lack of major suit honours and with 18-19 I would almost always rebid 2NT.  Since we were in uncharted territory I and further science likely to be risky I just went straight to 6 !C.  Note that even had partner taken 2 !S as “black-out” and dutifully bid 2NT with 1345 distribution 6 !C could well be just as good a contract as 6 !H. Yes we could miss an easy 7  !C if partner had K  !H and J  !C

The bidding at the other table was: 1  !C - 1  !H. 2  !D - 2NT, 3 !H - 3NT, 4  !H - pass. 



kenberg

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2020, 11:29:02 AM »
About reverses: I have never heard of "black-out". Perhaps it is the same as Ingerberman?   

In my experience, reverses are a major source of trouble. Just about everyone agrees that they are a one round force (Goren did not agree with that as I recall) but beyond that ideas vary a lot as to which bids are natural/artificial, which bide are forcing/passable.game-forcing.

This is from the pinned note at BBO Discussion Forums> Bridge-Related Discussion> Intermediate and Advanced Bridge Discussion  of mikeh about the reverse from 1 !C to 2 !D.

Quote
All of this is fine, and works reasonably well, but for those interested in something even better: use Ingberman.

This convention is similar to the lebensohl-type 2N above: in fact, on many hands, it works exactly the same. Ingberman use the cheaper of 2N and 4th suit forcing as the ostensibly negative bid. As with the lebensohl-like 2N, use of the Ingberman bid is the only way that the partnership is allowed to stop short of game.

This is an improvement on 2N, when it happens, because it increases the chance of the strong hand declaring notrump. After all, a very common hand pattern for a reverse is 5431 with a stiff in responder's suit.

Say you hold x AQx KQxx AKJxx and partner responds to your 1♣ opening with 1♠. You reverse to 2♦. If partner were to have a weak hand, without rebiddable ♠s, he has to bid 2N and now you play 3 of a minor or 3N from the wrong side. By allowing him to use 4th suit 2♥ here as the artificial, usually negative response, you as opener get to bid 2N! From the right side.

Change your hand to AQx x KQxx AQJxx and have the same opening, response and reverse. If he has to bid 2N, you are torn between 3♣ and 3♠. If he has 5♠s, 3♠ is definitely best, but if he has 10xxx Kxx xxx Kxx, you want to play 3♣. How do you know?

Well, allow him to bid 2♥ and you bid 2♠: a perfect description of your 3=1=4=5 hand. Now you find the 5-3 ♠s (and find decent games when he'd have passed 3♣ over 2N) while allowing him to play 2♠ rather than 3, or allowing him to intelligently decide between playing ♠s and ♣s.

Also, responder can now comfortably bid 2N naturally when 4th suit would be available: establishing a gf, showing stopper(s) in the unbid suit and allowing opener free rein at the 3-level to further describe his hand.

For this reason, many experts and advancing players use Ingberman.

My feeling with the hand in question is that after 1 !C - 1 !H - 2 !D I do not know if I want to play this in clubs or hearts (the stiff !H K is adequate support) and I do not know whether I want to play in game or slam ( can they cash the !S AK?) When there is a lack of discussion I often just take the best shot so I am fine with seeing if partner has something, who knows exactly what. in !S and then jumping to 6 !C. It's likely to be right.

But for discussion, we can consider just what means what.  Whether it is called Ingberman or black-box is not critical, but whether the fourth suit is natural, or artificial game forcing, or artificial and potentially weak, needs to be settled. People have very different views on this and on many other ideas about reverses. Forcing for one round? Yes. Beyond that? Let's hope.


Added: Looking at the hands:
 !S AK5
 !H 9
 !D KQ109
 !C A10876

opposite

 !S 10963,
 !H AQJ1074,
 !D -
 !C KQ9

I guess 6 !H is a better contract than 6 !C.  How are they to stop us, no matter where the location of the !H K,  from taking five tricks in hearts, five in clubs and two in spades? Maybe a horrible heart split or maybe clubs are 4-1 and they can negotiate a ruff.
Playing in clubs it is less clear that we can set up and run the hearts.  As it was played, the !S opening lead was won and the !H 9 was led to the T. Suppose it loses and a !D comes back to the K and, suppose, the A.  Uh oh. If we ruff, we can no longer draw trump ending in the hand with the long hearts.  A bit unlucky, but probably 6 !H is the better contract. Can that be worked figured out during the auction? Beats me.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2020, 01:23:31 PM by kenberg »
Ken

Masse24

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2020, 01:34:57 PM »
I've never taken a deep dive into Blackout. I rarely hear of it. I have read several articles online, but that's as far as I pursued it. It is similar in that it uses the lower of 2NT and the 4th suit as the weakness showing bid. But I think there are specific meanings attached to the rebids?

Here, in North America, I think that lebensohl is the starting point for advanced methods over reverses, with Ingberman (since it employs the 4th suit if available at the 2-level like Blackout) as being a mild upgrade. Ingberman has been BWS since at least 2001.

Like Ken, I've read the pinned BBF post many times. Mike Hargreaves is a rare combination of expertise and writing ability. He can communicate ideas if he takes the time to do so. I do know he has changed some of his ideas since writing that article. He stated as much on another post. But he did not go into detail. I'm curious what his "revised" thinking is on bidding after reverses.

I think a separate leb, Ingberman, Blackout (Wolff?) thread--here in the IAC--would be interesting. Maybe we can get one started elsewhere?

Anyway, back to Jack's hand. Since the partnerships were casual, after Jack's choice of 2 !S, and hearing 2NT, I am in complete agreement with Jack's conclusions as to partner's shape. And 6 !C was okay too. But I would have taken the scenic route.  ;)

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wackojack

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2020, 04:33:40 PM »
Problem B
WvR p-p-?

 !S KQJ5
 !H K97542
 !D J3
 !C 2

Choices:  Jim Pass; Todd 2  !H; Ken 1 !H; Me 2 !H; Opps table 1  !H

Most choices are made emotionally   We then search for rational reasons for our choice, select a convincing one and then fool ourselves into believing that we chose rationally.  So I cannot comment on my choice of 2  !H except to say it would have given me pleasure to hear a 2 !S overcall on my left and my partner raising to 3 !H.  When 2  !H was passed out dummy was not really what I wanted and all I could make was 7 tricks for 1 off.
 !S 86432
 !H A
 !D Q9
 !C J10643

Nevertheless, opps have got a 9 card  !D fit with a combined 23HCP,  so -50 looked quite promising.  And as it turned out when my opposite number decided to open my hand 1  !H (and I do not criticise this at all)  our team mates were able to overcall in diamonds and compete to the 3 level.  Our opps won the bidding battle and went 1 off in 3  !S for a push board.  So the 2  !H pre-empt worked, but so did the constructive 1 !H bid by my opponent in the same position.  As the cards lie it looks like 4  !D will make (10 tricks).  So LoTT was spot on seeing that 2  !S was all that could be made by NS.  . 

wackojack

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2020, 09:45:10 AM »
Problem C
At game all: 
p -(p) - 1 !H- (?)

 !S K87632
 !H 62
 !D A6
 !C J75

Chioces:  Ken 1  !S; Jim 2 !S; Todd 1 !S; Partner pass;

Dummy turned up with:

 !S AQ54
 !H 1085
 !D KJ942
 !C 10

!S is an easy make when  !D s can be established.  4  !H is an easy make at the other table.  LoTT evaluation 10  !S + 8  !H =18. (2 short of actual)  However, EW have a 10 card  !C fit also so at least 1 extra LoTT trick should be allowed for. 

Arguments against:
!S :  Only 8HCP and if you end up defending partner will misjudge your high card strength in  !S
!S:  With absolutely no stuffing in the suit and spades sitting over you, you could easily go for 800. 
Pass:  You lose a possible  !S fit when opps bid up in  !H s. 

Sadly for us partner's pass lost us finding our super spade fit.

Turning attention to the opps hands:  East had: 

 !S 9
 !H KQ9743
 !D Q5
 !C AKQ9

At both tables  the excellent 4  !H contract not being reached.
At my table: 
p -    (p) - 1 !H - (p);
1NT -(p) - 3  !H  all pass

At opps table:
p - (p) -    1 !H - (1  !S);
p-  (2 !H)- 3  !H -(3  !S);
all pass

I would argue that at both tables east's 2nd bid should have been 3  !C and not 3   !H.  Discuss?   
 


kenberg

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2020, 11:35:40 AM »
Problem B
WvR p-p-?

 !S KQJ5
 !H K97542
 !D J3
 !C 2

Choices:  Jim Pass; Todd 2  !H; Ken 1 !H; Me 2 !H; Opps table 1  !H

Most choices are made emotionally   We then search for rational reasons for our choice, select a convincing one and then fool ourselves into believing that we chose rationally.  So I cannot comment on my choice of 2  !H except to say it would have given me pleasure to hear a 2 !S overcall on my left and my partner raising to 3 !H.  When 2  !H was passed out dummy was not really what I wanted and all I could make was 7 tricks for 1 off.
 !S 86432
 !H A
 !D Q9
 !C J10643

Nevertheless, opps have got a 9 card  !D fit with a combined 23HCP,  so -50 looked quite promising.  And as it turned out when my opposite number decided to open my hand 1  !H (and I do not criticise this at all)  our team mates were able to overcall in diamonds and compete to the 3 level.  Our opps won the bidding battle and went 1 off in 3  !S for a push board.  So the 2  !H pre-empt worked, but so did the constructive 1 !H bid by my opponent in the same position.  As the cards lie it looks like 4  !D will make (10 tricks).  So LoTT was spot on seeing that 2  !S was all that could be made by NS.  .

Double dummy I think there are 11 tricks when played in diamonds.

                        !S KQJ5
                        !H K97542
                        !D J3
                        !C 2

!S T7                                          A9
!H QJ86                                      T3
!D 8642                                      AKT75
!C AK7                                        Q985


                        !S 86432
                        !H A
                        !D Q9
                        !C J10643


Suppose E is in 5 !D and the defense starts with the !H A and a shift to a !S. Win the ace. Now the play is not even all that double dummy, providing you are in 5 !D and so decide to risk it all to make. You need S to hold both !C honors and you need !D to split. And you need to be able to handle the transportation without suffering a ruff.

Lead a !C and if S doesn't split, play the 7, it wins, so draw trump in two rounds, cash the !C AK and come back to hand with a trump to throw a !S on the !C Q.
So assume at T3 S splits !C go 5-J-A-2. Cash the two high trump and lead another !C. Again you pick up the clubs.

Playing this way the losing !S gets tossed no the !C Q and there is still a trump on the board.

Of course if N has a !C honor then playing this way is a disaster so only someone who is actually in 5 !D would try it. But LOTT analysis usually assumes double dummy play and, with dd, it seems to make 5 !D. It's a very lucky 5 !D but it seems to be there. I don't see any defense, at the first two tricks when they have choices,  stopping it.


« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 12:11:11 PM by kenberg »
Ken

jcreech

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2020, 11:41:15 AM »
I agree that at both tables, 3 !C should have been opener's 2nd bid.  The suit is excellent for a second suit, and it helps guide the defense (if need be).

I also agree that if AQxx Txx KJxxx T had shown up on my left, I could be sucking wind after a reopening double,  But by bidding 2 !S, I also made it easier for partner to raise me to game (either freely or pushed there by the opponents bidding 4 !H).  Initially, my idea was to take away clear invitational sequences so the opponents would have to guess.  If 2 !S is passed back to opener, I think 3 !C would say I have a very nice distributional hand.  But holding the opener's hand, I would be reopening with a double, to cater to partner holding a spade stack and heart shortness.

A stairway to nowhere is better than no stairway at all.  -Kehlog Albran

Masse24

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2020, 11:58:01 AM »
Turning attention to the opps hands:  East had: 

 !S 9
 !H KQ9743
 !D Q5
 !C AKQ9

At both tables  the excellent 4  !H contract not being reached.
At my table: 
p -    (p) - 1 !H - (p);
1NT -(p) - 3  !H  all pass

At opps table:
p - (p) -    1 !H - (1  !S);
p-  (2 !H)- 3  !H -(3  !S);
all pass

I would argue that at both tables east's 2nd bid should have been 3  !C and not 3   !H.  Discuss?

Clubs. Yes. Clubs at both tables. Yes.

But not 3 !C.

At the other table, where there was interference, 3 !C.

However, at your table, 2 !C. It's not worth a jump-shift.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 12:28:00 PM by Masse24 »
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kenberg

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2020, 12:32:55 PM »
I agree with Todd. Let's start with agreements:

p -    (p) - 1 !H - (p);
1NT -(p) - 3  !C


This is 100  % game forcing? For me, it is, and I believe that is the standard treatment.

Holding
 !S 9
 !H KQ9743
 !D Q5
 !C AKQ9
I can easily imagine the opponents taking the first four tricks regardless of the strain so I am not going to make a game forcing bid. What will I do? With silent opponents and my shapely hand it seems highly likely that partner will have the values to bid over my 2 !C.  After I make a passable 2 !C bid, a bid of 3 !H is clearly passable and clearly encouraging, and partner will do as partner thinks best.

If they go on to 4 !S partner, holding five clubs, might well take the sac.

And, as is so often the case, LOTT need a bit of interpreting. Usually, for LOTT, we take the longest fit in each hand. There is a ten card spade fit and a nine card club fit so LOTT works with 9. This is actually right, sort of. There are ten tricks played in spades and only nine if played in clubs since after taking two diamonds and a spade, another diamond gives a trump promo. Now if we play in hearts the trump promo doesn't work so there are 20 total tricks. So LOTT gives the correct trick total comparing a spade contract with a club contract, but we can do better playing in hearts rather than clubs.So taking the sac is better in !H !  That would be hard to figure.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 12:54:22 PM by kenberg »
Ken

jcreech

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2020, 12:59:44 PM »


point well taken Todd - I get lazy in my dottage.
A stairway to nowhere is better than no stairway at all.  -Kehlog Albran