Can you get to the grand?

[jcreech]

I was a kibitzer on this hand.

Vul N-S
Dlr E
                    AKQ9862
                    A94
                    6
                    72

T3                                J4
JT873                          2
QT92                            K875
95                                KJ8643

                    75
                    KQ65
                    AJ43
                    AQT

At one table, I do not think there is any way to get to the grand.  E-W were silent and the auction went 1NT-2 (trans); 2 -6 .  North may have been concerned that 4NT would be treated as quantitative, but even with all RKC agreements fully understood, a critical piece of information was missing; where might the 12th and 13th tricks coming from.  You might be willing to gamble that partner has something that will turn into number 12, but not all the way to 13, so the jump to 6 is not at all unreasonable.

But at the other table, there was more information.  East opened 3 and South overcalled 3NT.  Now what do you do with the North hand?  Again, it is important to be on the same page with ace asking agreements.  North tried 4 (described as Gerber), South responded 4 (described as hoping partner is asking about majors) - oops, it doesn't sound like they are in sync here.

In my more well-discussed partnerships, I don't really have the ability to directly ask for aces.  4 is Stayman and 4NT is quantitative.  If I were to use Stayman and get 4 as the response,  I might be inclined to try RKC at that point.  Two with the Q in hearts gets mt to certain 12 tricks with at least two possibilites for a 13th, would be worth bidding 6 or 6NT (both of which are now right-sided from partner's side).

[Masse24]

Can I get to the grand?

No.

And I don’t want to be in it. That said, over 3NT, I’m not sure 4 as Stayman is best. 3NT could, over a 3-level preempt, reasonably be 16 or so, or something well north of 20. Extremely wide-ranging.

To be honest, I’ve never developed a well-diagrammed set of follow-ups after a 3NT overcall of a preempt. I recall reading that Kit thinks that 4 over 3NT is best used as a range-ask/“what sort of hand do you have?” bid. But I do not recall his follow-up structure.

I suppose for simplicity sake, in a not thoroughly discussed partnership, something resembling your 1NT structure makes for fewer disasters. But if so, then what is 4NT in this auction:

•   1NT – 2 – 2 – 4NT, or
•   1NT – 2 – 2 – 4NT?

Surely it’s not RKC?

What if, in the first auction, I have this hand: AQxx QT KJxx Axxx ??
Wouldn’t I start with Stayman and invite? Yes. Pretty standard. So 4NT is not RKC in the above auctions.

And if not, then what is RKC in this auction?
•   (3 ) – 3NT – (P) – 4 - (P) – 4 – (P) - ??
Or this . . .
•   (3 ) – 3NT – (P) – 4 - (P) – 4 – (P) - ??

I don’t know.

Because of the space constraints, I can see 4-level transfers followed by 4NT as “Texas-like,” setting trump with a subsequent 4NT being RKC. With a five-card major, you simply resign yourself to play in some level of notrump. But after Stayman?

Definitely worth discussion in an advanced, long-term partnership.

Anyone know of good methods in this type auction?

[kenberg]

I'll start with the first auction. I assume that 1NT - 4 - 4 - 4NT is rkc, and, if so 1NT - 2 - 2 - 4NT is indeed quantitative.  But yes, the spade hand can count 8 tricks in his hand, it seems optimistic to expect partner to produce 8 more.  If he wants to try, I think 1NT - 4 - 4 - 4NT - 5 - 5NT invites 7 . But really optimistic. Patner has shown 2 aces to get us up to 10 tricks but we still need 3 more.

For the second auction I have a story from long back. We were in a team game, we got to a small slam making +1, partner was disturbed that we did not find the grand. My response was "Look, we had to bid over their preempt, we found a small slam in the right strain, let it be" Indeed, when we got back to the other table we had won the board. Now here the proper strain is not hard to find but still.

If someone is to bid the grand it will have to be the hand with the AQ because he will probably feel it safe to count it for 2 tricks.  But it's a little hard to think of any auction where he would be able to say "Ah, partner is inviting a slam and since I have the AQT instead of the AJT I will accept".  It's just cutting it too close.

Now as to 3 - 3NT - Pass - 4 , what should that be? Well, forcing. Beyond that I don't know. It's easy to imagine that after  3 - 3NT - Pass  fourth hand might have two five card majors and want to play in whichever major partner has three of. I don't think it should be Stayman. Partner might not have a four card major.  But really I don't know.

[jcreech]

I went to BridgeWinners, and one comment spoke very clearly to the underlying issue:

"The point ... is that there is no alternative for an about 15–28 HCP range for 3NT, and it may may not be balanced. That makes the main problem whether to respond at all and makes the question of ‘tools’ all but moot."

Nonetheless, the most popular methods for making moves over (3m)-3NT-(P)-? auctions are:

(1) 4 is Stayman, 4 / are transfers to the appropriate major, 4 is a transfer to the other minor and 4NT is quantitative (in some fashion.

(2) 4 is size and shape asking.  With the following responses being suggested:
     (a) 4♦/4♥/4♠: 3NT based on length in bid suit
     (b) 4NT: relatively balanced and min (say 16-18/19)
     (c) 5♣: relatively balanced, max (say 20-??).
Although not discussed, you could still play transfers over this structure.

Anyway, food for thought. 

Disclaimer:  Please do not spring either of these on a partner without discussing first.

[wackojack]

Can I get to the grand?

No.

Anyone know of good methods in this type auction?

[wackojack]

Sorry I haven't yet read through all of the posts.  But the answer to Todd's question looks too easy.  and I I going out very soon

1NT  (15-17)        4   Xfer to 4
4                       4NT   RKB
5    (2-Q)           5NT   Kings
6     K             ?

?  Responder counts the certain tricks:  7 , AK , A , A  = 11.  Where is the 12th coming from, when we know that partner has not got a minor suit king.  A QJ in either minor gives the 12th.  If not so then give partner AJ in both minors = 10HCP.  Add K  = 13.  Then where are the other 2HCP?  Must be Q  =15.  So we can count 12 tricks.  Sadly there is no was of asking "Partner do you have J ? for 13. 

[Masse24]

But the answer to Todd's question looks too easy. 

My question asked about methods after a 3NT overcall of a three-level preempt.

[wackojack]

That will teach me not to try and answer questions in a hurry.   Now that I have read and absorbed the very erudite discussion, I note that Ken had more or less already said the same as me. I have nothing to add to possible methods after a 3NT overcall of a 3 level pre-empt.     

[DickHy]

I've come late to this discussion so this is out of thread-order - apologies.  My partner and I are intermediates, so shouldn't be taken too seriously, but we treat 4N as variable in [1N - 2 /2 - 2M - 4N] and [2N - 3 /3 - 3M - 4N] auctions.  Because we also use Texas transfers, opener knows that in these auctions responder has got only 5 cards in his major. 

   If opener has 3/4c support for the major, he responds to 4N as if it were RKC for the major.
   If opener has only 2c support for the major he treats the 4N as quantitative. 

The situation has come up only a handful of times - always when responder is 5M(332)* - and has worked well.  Of course, that's no sort of sample.