Author Topic: Wacko's MSC  (Read 5896 times)

wackojack

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Wacko's MSC
« on: March 29, 2020, 11:25:39 AM »
Below are some "your bid" questions that arose during a recent match.  Different choices were made which could have been crucial.  No doubt you could find what actually happened, but if you did, that could spoil genuineness of your answers. 

A.  At WvR, you dealer open 1  !D
    !S AQ8,   !H 862, !D QJ109,  !C KQ5.
   
     1  !D - (1  !H) - Dbl - (p);  ? 

B. At WvR, partner the dealer:
    !S KQJ5,  !H K97542,  !D J3,  !C 2
   
     p -(p ) - ?

C. Game all, RHO opens 1  !H:
    !S K87632,  !H 62,  !D A6,  !C J75
   
    1  !H - (?)

D. At WvR. RHO opens 1  !S:
     !S Q943,  !H KQJ10753,  !D K3,  !C -
     
      1  !S - (?)

E. At game all. partner the dealer opens 1 !C, opponents silent
    !S 10963,  !H AQJ1074,  !D - ,  !C KQ9
   
    1  !C  -  1  !H
    2  !D  -  2  !S *
    2NT    - ?
   
* 2  !S you intend as 4th suit game force meaning "please tell me more"

Masse24

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2020, 01:58:32 PM »
I'll start slowly, offering an opinion on only one to begin with.

PROBLEM A: 1 !S. The extra room created by the double can be taken advantage of. Textbook hand for this. Described here:  Responding to Negative Doubles (Billy Miller). Even if partner is unaware of this very logical treatment, it’s a smart choice.
“Kindness is the only service that will stand the storm of life and not wash out. It will wear well and will be remembered long after the prism of politeness or the complexion of courtesy has faded away.” Abraham Lincoln

jcreech

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2020, 07:19:58 PM »
I thought I had posted my answers this morning, but found that I had not.  Trying again.

A:  2 !C  I wish I had elevated this 14 HCPs to 1NT to avoid rebid issues.  However, having opened this 1 !D, this hand is not well suited for a Moysian and partner is almost certainly making a negative double with exactly four spades.  So I will gamble that partner either has five clubs or a diamond fit.

B:  Pass  This just doesn’t feel right to make a weak two in hearts, even in 3rd seat.  The spades are too good.  If I were playing Flannery, I would open this 2 !D because partner will know about both suits at once.  Since I am probably not, I will pass and hope the hand either gets passed out or that I get a chance later to show both.  Since I have both of the boss suits, I doubt that I will not have something to say before the auction is over.

C:  2 !S  The suit is nasty, so this could come back to bite me, but the space eaten up is pretty good given the vulnerability.  It will make invitational sequences by the opponents more difficult because a cue bid forces them to game, and 3H would be nebulous.

D:  2 !H  I am torn between jumping to 3 !H trying to induce a bad decision by the opponents and showing my real strength and bidding 2 !H.  In the end, I want to instill trust in the partnership, so I will make the simple 2-level overcall.

E:  3 !C  We are already in a game forcing auction, so it shouldn’t hurt to mention my club fit now.  I am not really keen on my 4th suit forcing bid because partner’s reverse should allow me to show a fifth  (or longer) heart without passing.  However, having used 4th suit forcing, 3 !C should be slammish, but I do not want to go jumping around since I do not have a spade control.
A stairway to nowhere is better than no stairway at all.  -Kehlog Albran

wackojack

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2020, 11:09:24 PM »
A:  2 !C  I wish I had elevated this 14 HCPs to 1NT to avoid rebid issues.
Just a quicky comment on this.  Without going into any of the hand evaluation softwares.  I like to be able to calculate at the table.  Then Bergen is amenable.
Milton Points = 14. 
Aces + tens = 2; Queens + Jack =4  That is almost -1 point
Quality sequence  !D QJ109 (3 out of 5 hons)  Add 1
4333 Subtract 1
This leaves us with 14 but not a good 14.   

Masse24

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2020, 12:37:53 AM »
I agree, Jack. For me it's downgradable, not the opposite.
“Kindness is the only service that will stand the storm of life and not wash out. It will wear well and will be remembered long after the prism of politeness or the complexion of courtesy has faded away.” Abraham Lincoln

Masse24

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2020, 12:09:55 PM »
PROBLEM B: 2 !H. I slightly prefer this to 1 !H.

PROBLEM C: 1 !S. The vulnerability steers me away from the preemptive choice. My one-level overcalls show 8-16 or so. Coincidentally, that is what I have.

PROBLEM D: 2 !H. WTP?

PROBLEM E: 3 !C. Somewhat dependent on agreements, specifically, the meaning of 2 !S and whether lebensohl or Ingberman were being employed.
But with the auction as presented, the description of 2 !S, and with opener bidding 2NT—showing 12 or rarely 11 cards not in my suit—there is no heart fit. But we have a club fit.

So I show it.

3 !C is enough since 4 !C would (for me) show four card (or better) support. 

This hand is a good example of visualizing partner's hand. What does he have to open 1 !C, reverse, bid no-trump (showing !S stoppers), and all the while--I have the !C KQx?


We could get into a lengthy discussion about what 2 !S is or is not depending on methods.

I know these hands, because I was at the other table. After the auction, one of the opps asked, "Why no alert if 2 !S was 4th-suit-forcing?" My partner, who bid 2 !S said he didn't think about it. I then offered that I play it as the weakness showing bid, so I was guessing a bit as to meaning. Remember that alerts are for agreements. I thought he might be using it as Ingberman, but I would rebid 2NT if using that method, too, so it did not matter. I'm simply mentioning my thought process during the three seconds it took me to bid.

My partner and the alert police were shocked.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 12:37:17 PM by Masse24 »
“Kindness is the only service that will stand the storm of life and not wash out. It will wear well and will be remembered long after the prism of politeness or the complexion of courtesy has faded away.” Abraham Lincoln

jcreech

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2020, 01:20:50 PM »
The comment was more an expression of regret that I am not playing a weak NT than a serious thought that I should upgrade the hand.  The real point I was making is that 1NT would solve a lot of my rebid issues that opening 1 !D seemed to create.  With square hands, I love to throw captaincy to my partner as quickly as possible and allow myself to be guided and limit myself to following direction or answering questions. 

By opening 1 !D, the captaincy issue has not yet resolved, and I want to bid 1NT, but the opponents have stuck in a 1 !H bid where I do not have a stop.  It is at this point I am saying to myself, if only I had upgraded and bid 1NT, I would not have this problem.  Granted, I might have a different problem, but at least I would have made the least possible lie about my hand.  How much closer could I come than 4-3-3-3 and a decent 14 to balanced and 15-17.  Lets consider my current alternatives - 1 !S suggests I have four, 2 !C, suggests I have four, 2 !D suggests I have six, but might be stuck for a bid with only five, and 1NT suggests have a heart stop.  All of these involve small distortions, and I would be hard pressed to distinguish which is the least lie. 

Nonetheless, I feel that that these options having differing levels of being fraught with danger.  Starting off with 1NT is the one I feel would have been least dangerous at this point, but I am beyond that point already.  I feel that rebidding diamonds is not the least lie, so I am excluding that option on that basis.  1 !S and 2 !C are equivalent least lies - highly suggestive of four, but actually having three.  I view 1 !S as being more dangerous because a partner that made a negative double with 3 spades and a very weak hand, may be willing to pass at the one level - partner is not likely to ever have five spades, so the best fit you are looking at is a 4-3.  I view 2 !C a bit less dangerous because with 3-3 in the minors at the two-level, they are more likely to take me back to diamonds - at least now I will be ruffing in the short hand.

Jack, like MSC, is giving us a bad situation, I just think 2 !C is the best option given the auction.
A stairway to nowhere is better than no stairway at all.  -Kehlog Albran

Masse24

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2020, 02:33:12 PM »
The comment was more an expression of regret that I am not playing a weak NT than a serious thought that I should upgrade the hand. 
Okay, whew!  ;D I guess I did not read between the lines closely enough to get your intended meaning. It also crossed my mind that life would be so much easier if we were playing a weak notrump. Alas . . .

I already expressed my preference above. I think it a far superior treatment. With agreement.

But both tables were casual partnerships, so did not have exhaustive agreements on nuanced auctions like this. I am curious what the cognoscenti would do here--lacking discussion--so I posted it to BW. I have no clue which way they will go.


BW numbers, one week later . . .

1 !S - 68%
1 NT - 27%
2 !C -   2%
2 !D -   2%
« Last Edit: April 06, 2020, 11:41:39 AM by Masse24 »
“Kindness is the only service that will stand the storm of life and not wash out. It will wear well and will be remembered long after the prism of politeness or the complexion of courtesy has faded away.” Abraham Lincoln

kenberg

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2020, 03:42:36 PM »
A. 1 !S, with or without agreement.  But it is best to have the agreement mentioned, that 1 !S is either on 3 cards or on a minimum. Partner can realize that I have been forced to bid, so he can take any call with a grain of salt (or a glass of wine).

B. 1 !H  I have six of them and a more or less opening hand. Playing some extended version of Flannery I could open 2 !D but I am fine with 1 !H. I don't think 2 !H is crazy, but I go with 1 !H.

C.  1 !S.   5 of my 8 hcps are not in spades. I prefer more in spades, less elsewhere, for 2 !S.

D.  2 !H. I suppose I could jump to 4 !H but I think 2 !H is more descriptive.

E.  As with Todd, and with Jim I now see,  I am not fond of 2 !S as an artificial game force. Assuming that the reverse promises another bid, even if I rebid 2 !H, I don't see that I need an artificial game force. Using 2 !S to show  a hand where I might well want to get out short of game seems more useful.
But suppose we agree 2 !S is an artificial game force. Then?

3 !C, I suppose.
Assuming 2 !S was artificial we now know that partner has at least something in spades. Having announced that much, he is now free to bid 3 !H over 3 !C if by some chance he also has something in hearts. There is no way I would take that as showing three cards in hearts. I suppose 3 !H could be artificial but in an undiscussed auction I think that if a bid could be natural then we should take it as natural.
Anyway, I bid 3 !C.

PS I so far have not gone looking for the hands, but I might do so now.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 07:17:43 PM by kenberg »
Ken

wackojack

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2020, 12:41:54 PM »
A.  At WvR, you dealer open 1  !D   
      !S AQ8,    !H  862,   !D QJ109,    !C KQ5.
   
     1  !D    - (1  !H   ) - Dbl - (p);  ?

Choices:  Ken 1♠; Jim 2♣; Todd 1♠; My table 2♣; Opps table 1♠

I am completely sold on the idea that 1♠ should show a 3 card suit when holding a minimum opener and no heart stop.  I also think that this should extend to vulnerable balanced 12 point hands with a heart stop.  The reason for this is partner’s negative double could be on a 6 count.  12+6 =18.  If opponents double you for penalties when you bid 1NT you are almost certain to go for -200 but more likely -500.  Both against a part score their way. With a balanced 13-14 and 4 card spade support you jump to 2♠.  I am reminded of transfer responses to 1♣ which are all the rage in the f2f tournament world.  So, with no intervention 1♣-1♥ = 4+♠.  Responses are 1♠ = 3 cards exactly;  2♠ = 4 card support min opener.

However, I reject Billy Miller’s assumption after 1 !C -(1 !D) - dbl = both 4 card majors.  I think you can double with 4-3 in the majors.  This of course means that 1 !C -(1 !D) - 1 !S could quite easily be a 4 card suit. 

Opener’s hand was  !S AQ8,  !H 862,  !D QJ109,  !C KQ5.  At the other table opener (team mate) did find the 1 !S rebid.  Now it is interesting to speculate what her partner’s response should be holding:
!S K432,  !H A7,   !D A752,  !C 876.  A rather bare 11 count.  On the basis that her partner has either min opener or a wee bit better with no  !H stop, then is it not perfectly reasonable to sign off in 2 !D?  Or perhaps 3 !D on the basis that opponents may otherwise be able to compete and win the auction in !H

At my table the bidding went:
!D   - (1 !H   ) - Dbl - (p); 
2♣    -  (p)      - 2NT – (p)
3NT all pass

Opener “gambled” 2♣.  Responder “went for it” with a 2N invite and opener with 14 obliged with 3NT. In the play it looks like only 8 tricks are available even when the K !D is on-side.  Interestingly with clubs blocked all declare need to do is to duck the first trick and my partner is automatically squeezed with count rectification plus 3 when diamonds are played out.  This must be extremely rare. 

6 imps to the opps.

kenberg

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2020, 01:12:50 PM »
As I was typing, Jack also posted on A. It's a fascinating hand.

There is some, well a lot, of duplication in my comments and Jack's.

Now I have looked up the hands, some of them anyway, and A has some interesting features.

First I look at the two hands, the one given and the one opposite:

!S K432
!H A7
!D A752
!C 876

!S AQ8   
!H 862
!D QJ109 
!C KQ5

The auction, starting with the hand shown as S, non-vul versus vul:
1 !D - (1  !H) - Dbl - (p) -?

Where do we want to play this, and how should the auction go?
That's far from clear, at least in my opinion. 

We need Lho to hold the !D K for either 3NT or 5 !D to have much of a play. So assume he has it. Now  !H KQJxx and !D K probably suffices for most people to justify 1 !H, so the !C A could be anywhere.

Assume the !C A is to our right. If we now assume the !D K is on our left (probably so, given the overcall and the location of the !C A) and if we assume !D are 3-2 then it appears that 5 !D is a make. But 3NT? We have three tricks in !S, one in !H, four in !D, that's 8, so we had better assume !S are 3-3 or else that !H are 6-2 (so that holding up in !H for one round will keep them from being run when Rho is in with the !C A).

Well, !S were 4-2 and Lho has both the !D K (that's good) and the !C A not good in 5 !D but it turns out to be good in 3NT since it is Lho who wolds the !S length, subjecting him to a triple squeeze (actually a triple squeeze without the count!) on the run of the !D .

All four hands:

               !S K432
               !H A7
               !D A752
               !C 876

!S T976                         !S J5
!H KQJ53                       !H T94
!D K8                             !D 643
!C AT                             !C J9432

              !S AQ8   
              !H 862
              !D QJ109 
              !C KQ5
 

Suppose the defense starts with !H. Declarer takes the second !H, goes to the board with a !S, runs the !D, it holds, so declarer cashes all four !D. W follows to the second !D, tosses the !C T on the third !D, and on the fourth !D he has the choice of tossing the !C A, or throwing a !H winner, or tossing a !S so that !S now run. Ouch!
So we want to be in 3NT if the triple squeeze is on, but if the !C A is in the other hand, so that W easily just tosses !C on the run of the !D, then, assuming !D are 3-2, we want to be in 5 !D. Or maybe the !S split. But maybe they don't.

It's a fun hand


« Last Edit: March 31, 2020, 01:32:06 PM by kenberg »
Ken

Masse24

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2020, 01:44:30 PM »

However, I reject Billy Miller’s assumption after 1 !C -(1 !D) - dbl = both 4 card majors.  I think you can double with 4-3 in the majors.  This of course means that 1 !C -(1 !D) - 1 !S could quite easily be a 4 card suit. 


1 !C - (1 !D) - dbl = both 4 card majors is standard. To play that double could be 4-3 majors seems strange when you have a perfectly biddable four card major. Standard stuff. So  . . .

1 !C - (1 !D) - 1 !H and
1 !C - (1 !D) - 1 !S

both show 4+ in the major bid, not 5+. Standard stuff.
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wackojack

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2020, 06:07:10 PM »
Sorry a senior moment.  Of course 44M is correct in that sequence.  I was getting mixed up with 1m -(dbl) which should only guarantee 43M.

Masse24

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2020, 01:22:02 AM »
E. At game all. partner the dealer opens 1 !C, opponents silent
    !S 10963,  !H AQJ1074,  !D - ,  !C KQ9
   
    1 !C  -  1 !H
    2 !D  -  ??

Apologies for the thread hijack since you did not ask this question. I know the choice at both tables was 2 !S.

Why not 3 !H? It's right out of a textbook.
“Kindness is the only service that will stand the storm of life and not wash out. It will wear well and will be remembered long after the prism of politeness or the complexion of courtesy has faded away.” Abraham Lincoln

kenberg

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Re: Wacko's MSC
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2020, 01:34:36 AM »
I tried hand A with the bots, the result was amusing.

It began as expected:
1 !D - 1 !H - X - Pass

Opener now bid 1 !S on his three card holding. He also self-alerted (the bots self-alert just about everything) the 1 !S call as showing four spades.  Yes, he self-alerted it as showing four, he had three. Director!

Responder then raised 1 !S to 2 !S, passed out.

I'm a little tired so I might check this again tomorrow. 
Ken