Opening 2M bids

[wackojack]

My range in common with all the bridge players I know is 5-9HCP in 1st and 2nd position.  A few days ago a pick-up partner in iac opened 2♠ with 11HCP.  The outcome was not good.  When I asked after he said that was what he was taught.   Yesterday I noticed in my “work-out” one of the volunteers opening 2♠ with 11.  OK so be it if that was what they were taught.  However, I fail to see any virtue in this. Weak 2’s, I thought were meant to be pre-emptive.  In other words, to take away bidding room from the opponents if as is likely the hand is theirs.  Also, because it guarantees a 6 card suit, it gives partner a possible platform for sacrificing should she have any length in that suit.  Should partner be strong, the range of 5 points for the opening bid also gives partner the necessary room to make a 2NT range/help-suit ask to assess the prospects of game.     
So, questions to those across the Atlantic who might know the answers to this curious (I think) practice of opening 2♠ with 11:
1.   Seriously would you open 2♠ with ♠ AKJxxx, ♥ xxx, ♦ QJx, ♣ x?   Or   ♠ QJ10xxx, ♥AKJ, ♦ x, ♣ xxx?
2.   Does it follow then that 1♠-1NT-2♠ shows a 6 card suit with 12-16HCP?

An aside:  I noticed when kibbing USA v Netherlands in the Bermuda Bowl a few years ago that the young Dutch pair opened 2♠ with a 3 count.  This was explained by the commentators that they played 2 levels of weak 2’s.  2M very weak, and 2♦ (either ♥ or ♠ and weak)  I don’t remember if this was only not vul.   

[jcreech]

When I was just starting out, in the US it seemed to be a pretty universal 6-12.  That did not last long, as this was the start of the creep downward.  Things got so undisciplined that the ACBL put in a regulation that the weak 2 could not go below 5, and I think in a separate action, decreed that the range could not exceed 6 HCPs.  Those have gone to the wayside at this time.

Now the convention cards I see are marked 5-10 or 5-11.  My rule of thumb is, if I am unwilling to open 1, then I can consider opening 2.  After that, everything else depends on relative vulnerability and position in the auction.  In the first two seats, I try to stay close to the rule of 1-2-3 (unfav-equal-fav vul).  In third seat I treat it mostly as a tactical bid.  And in fourth, I want to go positive, so I expect to make my bid, but do not expect partner to have a hand that will make game opposite mine.

In terms of Jack's schema, I might creep into a weak 2 with 11 under the right conditions, but not often.

[kenberg]

A phrase I sometimes hear: "The hand was too strong to open 2 and two weak to open 1 so I passed."  I try to avoid that situation.
With either of Jack's suggested hands,
 ♠ AKJxxx, ♥ xxx, ♦ QJx, ♣ x   or   ♠ QJ10xxx, ♥AKJ, ♦ x, ♣ xxx
I open 1 .
Weaken them a bit, not much, and 2 is looking better with the first one. The second is  a problem if the weakening is in the spades, eg ♠ Q10xxxx, ♥AKJ, ♦ x, ♣ xxx.  Opening 2 with a suit headed by the QT while I have AKJ on the side doesn't appeal to me, so I probably pass.  If I open it, I open 1 . Yes, maybe 1 . A decent hand.   
Note that if I pass, I would not say that the hand is too strong for 2 , I would say that too few of the values are in spades.

My choices are only partly on the basis of point count. When vul, I like to have a pretty decent suit. This is not so much because I worry about going down too many, although that can happen. My concern is that partner, seeing an opportunity for a vulnerable game, should be able to make his try w/o worrying that I have opened 2 on, well, on QTxxxx. Or worse.

[wackojack]

I don’t think the quality of the trump suit should have any bearing on whether or not you open with a weak 2M or 1M.  Say opposite partner’s weak 2♠ you had ♠ xxx, ♥ xxx, ♦ Kxx, ♣ AKQx.  Would you not wish your partner did not insist on opening with a 10 count or even a possible 11?  I hate being in that position. 

Let us get down to the philosophy behind a weak 2M opening bid.  Surely it is done in order to thwart the likely stronger opponents by using up their bidding room?  If you open 2♠ with a 10 count then your side is more likely to have the greater strength than the opponents.  Then you are thwarting partner by taking away his bidding room. Why call it a weak 2 if your hand is stronger than an average hand?   

Take two 10 point hands one with good spades and the one Ken gave with relatively poor spades:
(a)   ♠ AKxxxx, ♥ xxx, ♦ QJx, ♣ x
(b)   ♠ Q10xxxx, ♥AKJ, ♦ x, ♣ xxx 
Give dummy ♠ xxx, ♥ xxx, ♦ Kxx, ♣ AKQx.
Then with hand (a) 4♠ has no chance whereas with hand (b) 4♠ has a good chance.  Yes, opposite hand (a) the clubs values are wasted and opposite hand (b) there are no wasted club values. 

The point is that the hand with good spades could be weaker than the hand with poorish spades.  It entirely depends on how your hand fits with your partner’s hand.  That you have more chance of finding out if you give partner the room to describe his hand. 

And another thing.  Would you not want to open 2♠ nv with say KQ10xxx with nothing else except a singleton somewhere?  5HCP.  If top of your range is 11, I pity poor partner. 

[kenberg]

I could well open 2 on KQTxxx, perhaps even without a singleton on the side,depending some  on the vulnerability.

For suit quality and other features. to each his own, I take various things into account  I definitely do not just base it on high card points.

[wackojack]

I see that Zia has partnered up with Meckstroth in the European Teams Monte Carlo.  Zia opened 2  with 9HCP.  Then the commentators announced that 1M - 8-11.  And 2  is a weak weak 2M showing 7 or less.  The min not specified.  better than the 7-11 2M monstrocity