Why I Want to Be a Member of IAC

[OliverC]

I agree, Sanya. Losing Shep was definitely a big blow to the Club.

[onoway]

Unfortunately for us she decided the time had come for her to retire, so she stopped teaching altogether.  We can only be extremely grateful for the years she offered her time every week in IAC.

[kenberg]

I have been off on vacation. I didn't take a computer. I used my cell phone, reluctantly, when I had to.  We were back in childhood haunts of  Minneapolis-St. Paul, and then we went up north where a couple of childhood friends live, one on Bass lake, one on Cross Lake.  I'm back, so a few words.

There is something of an identity crisis in IAC.  I joined to play bridge.   I would not join an expert club because I am not an expert.  Nor am I a beginner. I can run a successful squeeze, I can also make some embarrassing mistakes.   So Intermediate/Advanced sounded promising. I had found that if I just joined a game in the main area people came, people went, many had very inflated views of their abilities, I rarely saw the same person twice and it could get  a bit weird.

I'm not big on lessons. I took "The Complete Book of Bols Bridge Tips" with me on our excursion to Minnesota although I can't say I read much of it. When I did, I concentrated on the Defensive Tips.  I believe in studying bridge but, my opinion, that's what books are for.
And hand records. I  very much believe in going over hand records. The purpose is to find where I could have done better, partner can worry about himself.

As for tournaments, I am just as happy, probably happier, playing a number of hands with a partner and two opponents. I started playing bridge when my first child was a baby. We had no money, our friends had no money, we would have another couple over, stuff the kids in a room, break open a pack of cards. And probably a beer. The daughter is now 55, so I am speaking of more than a few years back.

I was hoping for something with this general spirit. Hard to do online, I think.

Others have other hopes for the club, and so nothing seems to jell.

Incidentally, if anyone happens to get to St. Paul I most highly recommend the Charlotte Partridge Ordway Japanese Garden. Since 1957. or thereabouts, St. Paul has been a sister city with Nagasaki, and this beautiful garden evolved out of this relationship.
See  http://www.comozooconservatory.org/attractions/gardens/japanesegarden/#/info

[kenberg]

A quick add-on.

I got home about halfway through the DaveG lesson, watched the last half, and then some of us played for a while. After maybe 16 boards I had to leave, I'll skip the reasons, but I enjoyed the game.

I mention this because there is an air of defeat about the club. There was the usual problem of agreements. Nobody much knew what anyone else meant by their bids. Well, that's not great. But we still had a game and I am more interested in the pay than the bidding anyway.

So agreements would be nice, but we had a decent game. I might post a couple of hands, but not right now.

[onoway]

It's very difficult not to feel defeated when we have 900 members and cannot get more than 30 of them out to anything, usually fewer. It's not that they are not online, they just aren't involved with IAC, some apparently would rather kib or play with bots.

That's their choice, clearly, but then why are they members? They can't even be involved enough to tell us. Or they say it's because the times are wrong but when we put on events at the time they say they wanted they still don't play with us.  Why did 600+ people scream bloody murder when BBO dropped their memberships? It's beyond me to explain why they even noticed much less care.

They won't tell us why they want to be members, they won't tell us what drives them to spend their bridge time elsewhere so we can try to  adapt.  It leads to a feeling of defeat when people offer their time to direct or teach and nobody shows up. It is even more depressing  when IAC members play in BIL instead of IAC, if they belong in BIL then why are they members of IAC? We struggle to get people to play in teaching sessions, but  members will apparently eagerly sit in teaching sessions in BIL.  Sometimes it's even the same teacher  at the same time of day and everyone sitting at the table in BIL is an IAC member, as well as half the kibs.  One day I dropped in and there were only two people NOT IAC members, the teacher and one other.

So sometimes it feels like swimming in molasses in the dark having no sense of what direction to go to reach anywhere at all. 

 

[kenberg]

Surely there is a momentum problem. Oliver's Precision group has the momentum. They get a large crowd for the lessons and then they have play and discuss at other times, also well attended I think. The rest of us are a collection of individuals, but not really a group. Or so it seems.

Yesterday I got home in time to catch the last half of DaveG's lesson. The four volunteer players were leaving the table. Since I was a late show I assumed others were scheduled but nobody was, and nobody was volunteering, so I did. Or I guess I was the second to do so. Anyway, we got four of us.   The first hand had a number of interesting features, as most hands do. I was dealer, I had a 4=3=2=4 shape and a 12 count. I opened 1C. Left hand opponent  bid 2D, preemptive, passed back to me.My diamonds were K9. Yuk. But a nice hand for discussion. Since my hand was not much to start with and my diamond K now looked badly placed, I passed.  Partner's shape was, I believe, 3=3=4=3.  What would he, or what should he,  have done if I had re-opened with a double?  His diamonds were A8xx and we can beat 2D. I am not so sure we could if he had A7xx.  Maybe, I would have to think about it. [Edit: Yes, I am pretty sure we can. I put the hand up in sleight of hand.]  The hand will make 1NT our way, at least if played from partner's side, but I am not sure anyone can make 2 of anything. I have not checked it out.

My point is that there could be a lot of discussion on this hand and on many hands. But that has not really caught on as an idea.  It has with the Oliver Precision folks but not otherwise.

Maybe it comes to this: A lot of people just want to sit down and play a few hands. There is usually an open table at, say, the WP Refugees.  (I don't actually know what they are refugees from.) So they go there. It's a momentum thing.

Here is one way the club might fill a need: Non-Precision people need practice playing against Precision. Precision people perhaps  need practice playing against non-Precision people. There are a lot of both types in the club. It's an opportunity.

Watching the USBC I saw this Precision problem arise:
1C(16+)-(1D, natural overcall)-1NT(6-8 hcps or something like that)-(4D, natural, preemptive). The Precision pair knows a lot about their strength, they know little or  nothing about their shape. Well, they can probably figure neither of them holds a lot of diamonds. It's largely a guess as to what to do.  They got it wrong. Sometimes things go wrong, That's life. And that's bridge.

[OliverC]

Hi All,


Pam
There is an inevitable and considerable overlap between IAC and BIL. BIL's membership includes Intermediate players and maybe even some relatively advanced players who stay attached to BIL out of loyalty. IAC's membership also includes intermediate players, and possibly some of the upper end of the beginners who are improving rapidly and want to keep that momentum going.

I share your frustration, because I don't know exactly where the problem lies. I have my suspicions, which I've already voiced further up this thread, but I doubt that's the only issue. IAC is better organised than any other Club with the possible exception of BIL. That's perhaps what you would expect from the two main "teaching" Clubs on BBO. On the other hand, you go into the Acol Club most evenings and there are a considerable number of tables full of people happily playing Bridge. Not much in the way of organisation, no lessons, no competitions that I'm aware of, just a shared liking for a very simple and natural bidding system.

Ken
Momentum. Not 100% sure that's the right word to use in connection with OCP. Precision in general and OCP in particular are a minority market, no question, because they probably don't suit the majority of people (for a variety of perfectly good reasons). On the other hand, it's massive fun to play. There's also something indefinably cool about occasionally being able to actually write down partner's hand before the bidding even finishes . That's something most bidding systems are unable to deliver. With most systems, you know the broad strokes with a little detail rather than knowing all of the critical points about partner's hand before deciding where to play.

I think the other advantage OCP may have is that it's more of a comprehensive and complete system than 2/1. I've witnessed a few discussions between 2/1 players and the discussions mostly seem to centre on what other conventions you play rather than 2/1 itself, which is essentially Standard American with a Forcing 1NT response to 1 or 1 , 2/1 responses being game-forcing. Most people will also assume inverted Minor suit raises and New Minor Forcing, but most 2/1 system discussions I witness seem to be about whether you play Bergen raises or Drury (ie: add-ons), or which brand of Blackwood you favour, etc etc. Similarly Acol is an approach/forcing system, but with 4-card Majors and a 12-14 1NT, but otherwise very similar to Std American. I never really sat down and learned Acol, Std American or 2/1. I grew up with completely natural bidding (few, if any conventions) and lived through the true development of approach/forcing bidding (which current versions of all of those systems are examples of). The core differences between Acol, Std American and 2/1 are actually fairly small when you really get down to it (system, not add-on conventions).

I can't even begin to describe OCP in a couple of sentences. It takes me over a year to teach the basic OCP course and it probably takes most people 2 or 3 times through that course before they're really comfortable with the system. That investment of time and effort is probably what creates the enthusiasm OCP practitioners have for the system and make them want to sit around and discuss it (so it's a form of brand loyalty rather than momentum LOL).

Generally
On the other hand, I find it hard to engender the same degree of enthusiasm for play-related issues such as counting the hand, trump control, assumptions, or techniques such as end-plays, squeezes etc, because they aren't quite as "sexy" as Asking Bids, enquiry sequences and the like. Their enthusiasm is for the bidding system rather than other wider issues (to their detriment, of course).

I would be delighted if I could persuade people to invest a fraction of the time they put into bidding into really concentrating on religiously counting every hand, trying to become aware of what's happening and what the ful implications of the bidding and early play are. That really would improve their bridge out of all recognition compared to learning a different bidding system or some fancy new gadget. That take relentless effort and concentration, however, and most people can't or aren't prepared to invest that much into their game.

I've rambled on enough for now.

[onoway]

Part of what helps the ACOL club is the relative scarcity of people who play the system so it's a place where they can go and find someone who plays their system. That said, even the ACOL club struggled for a number of years  to get enough people to maintain the club, or so admins have told me.

They were the originators of the idea of hosted tables, which we tried in IAC at their suggestion and had some success until a mix of events scuttled them. There is some interest in trying those again in the fall.

 They do run tourneys and for a while were also running team matches, whether those are ongoing I don't know. One thing I've noticed is that it tends to be more social than IAC is, we tend to have very nice members but they cluster in clumps and those clumps tend not to interact much.  Thus we get tables with a group playing and a clump of kibs sitting watching rather than playing, as many of our members are fussy about the people who play at their table and apparently would rather kib than take a chance that a player "not up to their standard"  might sit.

 I know that attitude ( which usually is very clear to the unfortunate who sits, if only because of a grim silence or an exaggerated patient pointing out of errors) is part of why some members play in BIL. The players are polite but the chill is palpable.  sigh

How to deal with that is a question, if indeed even possible. I do think the friendly atmosphere  has contributed to the success of the ACOL club, as well as the hard work of the admins to capitalize on it. The few times I've been in the ACOL club there has often been chat between tables ( haven't been in the club since the changeover to the web version, so no idea if still the same)  which gives the impression they are all friends. No doubt that's not entirely true, but that was the atmosphere.  How to achieve that ??

[kenberg]

People have different goals, no question about it. I just put up a hand on the Sleight of Hand Forum, and made a count. I have put up 14 hands that I thought were interesting. Oliver has often responded, but there are very few other responses. Of course people do not have to be interested in the same hands that I am interested in, but nobody else has put up some other hand that interests them either.

What can I say? I thought having an IAC forum for discussing hands would be a good idea. Apparently not.

As to Acol: From its name, it is a draw for those who wish to play Acol. Players such as myself, players who do not know Acol, naturally do not go there.  Perhaps "Intermediate/Advanced Club"  is less precise in intent than "Acol Club".  When I bring up http://iac.pigpen.org.uk/  it says "This is the website for the BBO Intermediate / Advanced Club, a private Teaching club on Bridgebase Online." I had not thought of this as a teaching club when I joined. My thinking was more "Well, I am advanced, I am not an expert, this sounds right for me."

This thread addresses the question "What is IAC?"  The answer my friend is still blowing in the wind. I hope we find it.

[kenberg]

I woke this morning thinking of several more examples to illustrate my point, but then I realized that at heart it is very simple. The way I think about bridge does not match well with the guidance  people are hoping for in IAC. I just see it differently.  There are people who give audio lessons but it simply would not suit me.
 

[DickHy]

I’m a long way behind the times in commenting on this thread, which will not surprise my friends.  Nevertheless, perhaps this will be of interest.

I joined the IAC because I wanted to play with people who would understand why my play was slow (sometimes glacially so).  This is because one step to being an advanced player is to learn to do all the necessary counting – on defence as well as while declaring.  So, the folk in the IAC are either intermediates in the same boat as me or advanced players who have been on a previous sailing.  By and large everyone I have played with in the IAC has been very pleasant and understanding.

I thoroughly enjoyed the lessons ran by Jeremy and Oliver on Precision.  Indeed, I remain interested in using OCP.   However, for me lessons on declarer and defensive play are not economical as I am a freakish bookworm.  Reading Eddie Kantar’s Modern Bridge Defence and Advanced Bridge Defence was a revelation, particularly.  Incidentally, I have notes written over the years on declarer play and defence, which include example hands.  I’ve not added all the stuff on endplays and squeezes yet, but the pdf of the notes is only 500 KB (so far). 

I go through the hands that I have played.  This is jolly useful to spot persistent problems: I am terribly bad at spotting hands that ought to be cross-ruffed, for example.  Making as many errors as I do, means I have little time to consider other hands.  Nonetheless, I ought to look at hands that Ken and others post.

The two times I play each week - Monday and Thursday evenings UK time – have, and still often do, coincide with lessons in the IAC.  I think it is rude to the teacher to advertise for players among people attending a lesson.  I refrain from doing that and play with my partners (also IAC members) elsewhere. 

This has been a long post, so time for a suggestion.  When the IAC ran a calendar of players who expected to play in the club, I and my partners joined it - just so other members would know 2 people would be in the IAC at a particular time each week.  That worked well from memory, although we did get criticised on the evenings we didn’t turn up: I am particularly busy during the cricket season.  Perhaps having a calendar on the IAC site/forum which partnerships or singletons could pin notes to might be worth considering?  Members who intend to play and those who would like to play at certain times during the week or fortnight ahead could pin notes.  That would also allow players who sometimes miss slots to give some notice.  I would be happy to help administer it or help in any other way which meant more play in the IAC. 
 
Dick

[Curls77]

Interesting ideas there Dick, lets await what OliverC says about making such page on IAC site. And lets be patient as he is very busy lately.

You do not need to explain why you prefer play compared to certain lessons, many do. Just as many love tournaments and other never play in them, but like teams. The problem is that most active members use same "prime time" and there we gotta have trnys, lessons and also play in the club. But they are not ncessarely coliding, for example on Sunday 2100 UTC we have a tournament and OCP practice in the club. Very few members have hard time deciding which to attend, from reasons I said above.

For time being, untill we set such info on iac page, make as friends people that can use bboiac name to send call for players, and if there is no lesson running there is no reason why they should not. They are: onoway, OliverC, Ian84, ggriffin0, yleexotee, BabsG and me.

[OliverC]

Very interesting idea, Dick. Exactly what did you have in mind? Two possible formats spring to mind:

(1) Grouped by Days
Using this method, pairs or individuals would post their interest in playing at a particular time on particular days of the week, but not on specific dates. so all the expressions of interest relating to, for example, Fridays would be grouped in one section of the page, sorted by the approximate time, but without mentioning specific Fridays. This would work better for generating regular pockets of play each week, I suspect.

(2) Calendar Format
This would operate like a calendar, in which pairs and individuals would post their interest in playing at specific times on specific dates. We could, perhaps, allow them to specify every Friday at 3pm, for example, and get the Calendar to populate every Friday with their post. This method would allow more flexibility, in that pairs could say "I want to play this Friday, but not next Friday".

Either method would seem to be achievable. It's really a matter of which kind of format we feel would be more advantageous.

As Sanya says, I am very busy at the moment, not least because I am back working full-time, so my spare time for "other stuff" is drastically limited compared to how it's been for most of the last 10 years since I retired from the Police. I'm not sure how fast I can guarantee to complete such a project, therefore, but at least let's get the general discussion underway.

[DickHy]

Oliver, I suppose I was thinking about having a calendar for the month ahead.  However, it might be wise to opt for something simpler to begin with to see if there is the demand for advertising slots when members intend to play in the IAC.  So how about your first suggestion, which sounds simpler than the second to implement and, as you say, might start up some regular sessions?  Individuals/pairs could annotate their time slots with "usually" or "often" if necessary. 

[OliverC]

Okay, I'll have a bash some time (hopefully fairly soon) when I find some time for development stuff. I'll report in here when I've got something for you guys to have a look at.