Author Topic: We got thrashed (ii)  (Read 3987 times)

wackojack

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We got thrashed (ii)
« on: August 18, 2019, 04:56:16 PM »
I did threaten this would be a series, so here is another:  Red against white, you in 4th position have:
 !S AQ83
 !H J964
 !D 2
 !C 10852

Bidding:  p -p - 1NT - p; 2NT-p -3NT-all pass.  No alerts

Your lead?   

Masse24

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Re: We got thrashed (ii)
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2019, 06:06:44 PM »
!H 4
“Kindness is the only service that will stand the storm of life and not wash out. It will wear well and will be remembered long after the prism of politeness or the complexion of courtesy has faded away.” Abraham Lincoln

jcreech

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Re: We got thrashed (ii)
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2019, 08:52:48 PM »
For me, it is a state of match decision.  I intend to lead a major.

!H 4 under most circumstances.

!S 3 if I am down 15 or more midway through a match, or down 5 or more in the last two boards.

In other words, I think of the heart lead as being the ordinary lead, but if I am looking to get back in a match, I would consider the spade as a reasonable aggressive lead, that might strike gold or cost an overtrick.
A stairway to nowhere is better than no stairway at all.  -Kehlog Albran

kenberg

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Re: We got thrashed (ii)
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2019, 02:23:07 AM »

My first thought was a small !S, but possibly the !H 9 might be a reason to go with a small !H.  If partner has the T, with or without other stuff, we are maybe off to a good start. If declarer has the T my J9 might well save the day, say of it goes !H small-small-Q-K and partner later leads a !H through.. If the hearts were J7xx I would lead the small spade. Leading from J empty often doesn't work out, leading from JT often does, so leading from J9 might.

I have no strong objection to a small spade.
Ken

wackojack

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Re: We got thrashed (ii)
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2019, 09:48:54 AM »
Yes the 9  !H was potentially a very important card.   You could conjecture that if partner has the 10  !H, you have given nothing away and if partner has the 10 and the Q you could get partner in to lead a spade.  OTOH it seems unrealistic to expect to make 4 spade tricks if partner ever does get in with a heart.  This is not clear logic, I agree, but what was in my mind at the table.  Also there is a maxim: "Never lead from Jxxx against 3NT" 
                              !S AQ83
                              !H J942
                              !D 2
                              !C 10852
        !S K52                                        !S J76
        !H A5                                          !H K87
        !D AK107                                    !D 96543
        !C K763                                      !C AJ

                               !S 1094
                               !H QJ63
                               !D QJ8
                               !C Q94
 

I led the 3  !S and when partner got in with Q !D we made 3 spade tricks but no more.  Declarer had made 1  !S + 2  !H + 4  !D +2  !S. At the other table a low  !H was led.  Playing with the odds, declarer played to drop the  !D QJ and so went down, losing 2  !H + 1  !D + 2  !S tricks.  OR IS IT?  Safety play in  !D s to protect the K  !S?  So take the K  !H in dummy at trick 1 and lead a small
  !D and play low if South plays low?  You now likely have only 8 tricks when if  !D 2-2 you would have had 9 and so have to find the 9th unsafely. 

All this conjecture, of course in a spurs team match, is for the birds.  Play fast we are told by the TDs.  Not that I am complaining.  Learn to do right by instinct is a good thing.
 

jcreech

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Re: We got thrashed (ii)
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2019, 11:02:01 AM »
The less information there is in an auction, the more likely you are to make a mistake on opening lead.  On your auction, the only information is strength on your right and no interest in the majors on your left.  The majors sound the most promising, the question is which one? 

I chose the heart most of the time because if there is a finesse position for declarer, it doesn't cost anything but tempo, but the A, Q or 10 are all potentially useful to build tricks in the suit.  While the spade can give away a trick on the go that declarer may never have gotten otherwise. 

However, when needing a swing, the spade provides the best chance to obtain a swing while only adding a bit to the risk of a contract making that should go down.  The risk also is slightly higher at your table where responder invited and opener accepted.  At our table, responder used a version of puppet Stayman that left no room for an invitation.  At the same time, it also increased the chance that a major suit was the right lead because we knew that at best there was a 7-card fit; opener did not have a 5-card major and responder did not have a 4-card major based on the bidding.
A stairway to nowhere is better than no stairway at all.  -Kehlog Albran

kenberg

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Re: We got thrashed (ii)
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2019, 01:13:21 PM »
Minor typo: In the hand diagram, the !H J in the S hand should be the !H T, N has the J.

On this hand the !H lead works, assuming declarer doesn't peak at the cards and lead twice toward the !D AKT. The !H lead struck gold: Third hand has four !H including the Q and T, in !S he has Jxx. So this gets the hearts going, we have a !D trick coming, after which declarer still has only 8 top tricks so needs the club finesse to work and it doesn't. Ok, it worls. But on a different deal the spade lead might give us the first four tricks (lucky but possible) and then we still get a !D. N, instead of having the !H Q and the !S J, might have the !S K.

So I don't think it's clear. I do think that the !H 9 is a point in favor of a !H lead.

Let me put up another hand, I have a point to make with it. First my hand: 

!S: Q65
!H: AJT987
!D: K
!C: A74


Non-vul, the opps are vul I am the dealer

I opened 1 !H:

1 !H - 2 !C - 2 !H - 3 !C


Maybe it's optimistic, but the hand looks decent so I issued an invit with 3 !D. Incidentally, over 1 !H - 2 !D - 2 !H - 3 !D, where there is no suit between theirs and ours, I think X should be maximal, inviting in !H, but in this auction I think 3 !D is a generic invit neither saying nor asking anything about !D, it simply invites game in !H.Partner accepted. The lead is the !C K and dummy comes down:

!S: A9874
!H: Q62
!D: JT75
!C: 3

A perfectly reasonable accept, he has a useful stiff club  trump Q, and the !S A. Nobody cares about the !D J.

I said I had a  point: I mis-played this. Unlike the choice on the hand Jack posed, where I think the best opening lead is uncertain, this was clear cut. I took the !C A, ruffed a !C and led the !H Q. It's probably possible that this line could work but it requires more than just a well-placed !H K. The clear line is ruff a !C, back to had with a !H, ruff another !C, lead a !D. It will lose, and I will lose a trump, and I will lose a !S. But if the !S K is onside (it is) I have ten tricks. Of course of the !S K is offside I am going down. That's true. But Rho has something for his !C raise, probably one but not both of !H and !S kings. If he has the !S K I don't care whether he has the !H K if I play it right.

To drag out my point a little more: Most everyone makes mistakes, and usually it takes only a little effort to later find them. They say bridge is a game of mistakes, you win by making fewer of them than the opponents. Some mistakes are subtle, sometimes it is a matter of opinion as to whether a choice is a mistake at all. This one is a mistake. The iac is at least partly a teaching club, although I think it as mostly just a nice place to play. If I am to go into teaching mode I believe the most important lesson is: Not only does everyone make mistakes, everyone can fond at least some of their own mistakes. You might need expert help to learn how to run a compound squeeze, but most hands do not involve a compound squeeze, most hands involve several fairly mundane choices, and some choices will go wrong. Sometimes the cards lie badly so a sensible choice goes wrong, sometimes the choice is a clear mistake.  No one should underestimate their own ability to find at least some of their mistakes on their own.











« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 01:17:05 PM by kenberg »
Ken

jcreech

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Re: We got thrashed (ii)
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2019, 02:45:25 PM »
And, I got caught up in the mistake side of things.  There are degrees of mistakes. 

Some are glaring - ruffing partner's good trick due to inattention, and not because there was a belief that a critical switch was needed.

Some are moderate - failing to do something that saves an overtrick/

Some are slight - no impact on the result.

Opening leads, unless the player selects a lead counter to what the auction indicates, never should be regarded as a mistake - it should be regarded as fortunate or unfortunate.  An example of a mistake in this setting is that partner bid and rebids a suit, dummy bids NT, but declarer chose a suit contract.  Do you lead from your 97 in partner's suit, or do you led the J from KJTx in an unmentioned suit?  You can never be wrong leading partner's suit, but I watched the doubled contract make because the actual lead was the J.  I don't regard either lead on this hand wrong, the heart is fortunate and the spade unfortunate.  I may have reasons why I prefer one over the other, but it doesn't mean I am right.  It is just my opinion.
A stairway to nowhere is better than no stairway at all.  -Kehlog Albran

wackojack

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Re: We got thrashed (ii)
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2019, 05:07:41 PM »
I disagree just slightly.  In the most recent Master Solvers Club, there was an opening lead question.  The answer I chose scored zero.  I learned reasons why the chance of my choice of lead defeating the contract was not the most likely.  Holding on to my view against good evidence to the contrary is not going to get me far.   ::)  On this hand I think I accept that a low heart gives me more chance than a low spade.  Describe it as "unfortunate" or a "mistake" is immaterial, the reality was that it scored zero.