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Author Topic: Hands and philosophy  (Read 3960 times)

kenberg

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Hands and philosophy
« on: March 22, 2019, 12:47:15 PM »
As anyone reading this has probably noted, I think the way to get the most out of the lesson hands is to bring them up for discussion afterward. Jim provided us with some interesting hands yesterday, here is one of them

http://tinyurl.com/y2m7n3ox


he hand is cold for 6 !c, that's true. Nonetheless, I think 5 !C is fine. So that's where the philosophy comes in.


First philothought: 
More often than not, when the opponents open the bidding we will be competing, if we are bidding at all, for a part score. Sometimes a game. On occasion a slam. Once, long ago, the opponents opened and we were cold for a grand. We did get to 6 on that hand, partner wanted to discuss how we could have gotten to 7, I thought any such discussion would be of abstract interest only due to the infrequency.  In this case we have a 12 count facing an 11 count. Yes, everything is right, but that's hard to see. And in fact it everything is even righter than I first thought. In the post-hand discussion I noted that a trump lead at T1 would hold us to 11 tricks, but in fact that's wrong since the diamonds can be set up. Win  an opening !C lead in hand,  play !D Q to A and ruff a !D, back to the boar with the !C K, play the !D T tossing a heart, ruff another !D, back to the board with the !S A, and cash the last 2 !D  throwing the last of your hears. So, on a trump lead, you can take 13 tricks. But I would not want to bet on it.

Second philothought: 
It was mentioned that Joe believes that over my 3 !h a bid of 4 !C must be forcing since playing in 4m is seldom right. I mentioned that I am a dissenter from that view. My dissent is part of a more general view that most bids, unless discussed beforehand, should be interpreted in  a fairly naive.way. On the hand in question, partner has a 7 card !C suit and a stiff !D both of which are useful of neither of which are needed to justify the 2 !C overcall. But of course she also could  have a stronger hand.  I think it is useful to have the 4 !C call mean "I overcalled 2 !C, don't expect all that much more than that." If that's not enough for my taste, I can pass. With more strength, she can make some forcing bid.  With the hand she has, meaning one that is not a bare minimum for an overcall but also not filled with values, she chooses. I have perhaps more than I need for my 3 !H, so I raise 4 !c to 5 !C. It's true that it makes 6, but as noted above a !C lead might have set 6 !C accept for the magic of the !D holding.

Third philothought: 
I was asked to alert my 3 !H so I did, but outside of alerting it, what can I say? I have a good hand, and bidding 3 !H must surely show a good hand, but that's about it. I had not yet decided what I would do if partner bid 3NT over my 3 !H, I would think about it. If partner were to bid 3NT and then I were to pull to 4 !C, I would regard that as a very strong sequence. My 3 !H wasn't a request for partner to bid 3 !H with a !H stop but of course partner might well decide to do so on some hands.  Presumably I have some sort of !C fit for my 3 !H since if I don't it's hard to see why I would want to enter the auction with an artificial bid at that level. But I do not think that there is all that much I can say except that it shows a good hand.  Some cue bids have specific meanings, this one doesn't, at least not for me. 


So that's a lot of philosophy. The brief version:  If the opponents open the bidding and you find your way to 5 !C on a combined 23 count,  don't fret all that much over the fact that it makes 6.  Maybe Meckwell can have a precise auction that gets them there, but I am not Meckwell (neither half of them).

These were an interesting set of hands. I was around for the first seven of them, I often need to leave around 6:15 edt on Thursdays.
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Ken

Masse24

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Re: Hands and philosophy
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2019, 01:45:08 PM »
Although I am sometimes present at Jim's sessions, since I'm at work, my sound is turned down, so I cannot hear the commentary.

Looking at the hand provided, I agree with all your "philothoughts."  ;)

With the right hand, and with a !H stop, partner could certainly offer 3NT as a place to play. But the default meaning (what overcaller should expect) for the 3 !H advance is "forcing, good support, tell me more." Here, the 4 !C rebid says as Ken suggests, "I overcalled 2 !C, don't expect all that much more than that." It is therefore not forcing. There are other auctions where 4m can and should be considered forcing, but in competitive auctions you must be able to offer the 4-level as a place to play.

P.S. I, too, have never been compared to Meckwell. Or half of Meckwell. Sigh.  ;)

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kenberg

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Re: Hands and philosophy
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2019, 03:18:07 PM »
I realized while taking my morning shower that on a !C lead there is a good chance of making 6 !C even without the miracle !D holding that exists. If diamonds are no worse than 4-2 and  clubs are 2-1 it goes like this: Win the lead, !D A and ruff a !D, back to the board with a trump, ruff another !D, back to the board in !S, ruff another !D, the two !D on the board are now good. Lead a !H, losing that trick,  after which you will ruff a !H to the board and cash one of the good !D, and claim.

Still, I'm fine with 5 !C as a contract. 6 !c is fine if I get to see all the cards and think about it for a while.

Another thought I had (it was a long shower): If 4 !C cannot be passed, that means that my 3 !H is game forcing since there is no way out. If pard bids 3NT I couold get out in 3NT but if pard bids 4 !C and I cannot pass then we play in 5 !C. So as soon as I bid 3 !H I am committing the hand to be played in either 3NT or at least 5 !C.  I can see there could be arguments for and against 3 !H being an absolute game force, but if 4 !C is not passable then whatever the arguments for and against such an agreement, the 3 !H is a game force if 4 !C is not passable. On this hand that would present no problem to me, as soon as pard overcalled 2 !C I looked at my !C fit, my two side aces and my stiff !H and decided that we would be in some game somewhere,   but it won't always be that way.
 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 12:33:13 PM by kenberg »
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Ken

wackojack

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Re: Hands and philosophy
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2019, 05:04:37 PM »
It comes down to the difference between a hand that bids 3 !H and a hand that bids 4 !C.  Both are forcing.  So after 1 !H-2 !C-2 !H:
4 !C says: I have bypassed 3NT and am committed to at least 5 !C.
3 !H says: I have club support but do not want to rule out 3N being the best contract.  So with  !S xxx,  !HAxx,  !D x,  !CAQJ10xx opposite Ken's hand she could bid 3NT counting almost certainly 9 top tricks when 5 !C would be unmakeable.  So Ken's 3 !H bid was perfect. 

So how can you get to the very decent slam?  I am mulling over how NS could confidently bid the slam and thought of a possible way.   1 !H-2 !C-2 !H-3 !H:
3 !S control (King or Ace)............... 4 !H (singleton?)
4 !S Kickback.................................5 !C 3 (1430)
6 !C

Fanciful?   

Oh I haven't said why I think 4 !C here should be forcing?  I think that 4 !C should only be passable when you are in a competitive situation when 4 !C is the only bid that you can make to compete.
 What about non competitive then say: 1 !S-1NT-2 !C-3 !C-4 !C?  That also has to be passable.  I expect there are other obvious situations where 4 !C should be passable.       
 
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Masse24

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Re: Hands and philosophy
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2019, 08:14:33 PM »
Kickback for !C is 4 !D
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Masse24

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Re: Hands and philosophy
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2019, 08:28:18 PM »
Quote from: wackojack on March 22, 2019, 05:04:37 PM
It comes down to the difference between a hand that bids 3 !H and a hand that bids 4 !C.  Both are forcing. 

Where I play, I can't imagine 4 !C being played as forcing. Though any agreement between partners is possible.

There are hands where, with the right vulnerability, or the length in partner's suit, I simply wish to get in the way. Advancing 4 !C would do that. If I must play it as forcing, then that leaves me with an almost inconsequential raise to 3 !C , or a leap to 5 !C to show a weak hand. While you may think that the 3 !H cuebid is overloaded, I would think it to be standard to wrap both a limit-raise and game-force in that one call.

I dunno, maybe others have thoughts on this one?
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kenberg

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Re: Hands and philosophy
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2019, 01:14:16 PM »
I did a little browsing in books. How to bid after LHO opens, partner overcalls, and RHO passes gets a lot of discussion, how to bid after RHO raises gets less. But I figured The Complete Book of Overcalls, Mike Lawrence, should have something and indeed it does. I have the 1979 edition. On page 97 we have the auction (1 !H) - 2 !D- (2 !H)-? and fourth hand is holding

!S: A87
!H: 42
!D: QT7
!C: AJ642

Looks familiar enough! The main difference from the hand that I held is that I had a stiff in their suit, this hand has xx. ML recommends the cue bid of 3 !H noting that the hand might belong in 3NT, but also might belong in !D at either the 4 or 5 level. If the cue bid allows for the auction to stop in 4 !D, it follows that a response of 4 !D to the cue bid is non-forcing.

ML does not say what a jump raise to 4 !D, rather than a cue bid, would show. On this hand it's natural that we do not want to bypass 3NT, but perhaps there could be hands that are so shapely as to just rule out 3NT but still want to invite to 5 !D. To me, this seems like a pretty fine needle to thread.

Still, it's of interest to think of just what a jump to 4 !D should be on. If it has !D length and not much else,then it is a good bet that the opponents are about to bid 4 !H and they probably have a good shot at making it. So I suppose it invites partner to bid 5 !D as a sac when the almost inevitable 4 !H is bid. Perhaps that's the way to look at it.

Just to show the variety that can arise, yesterday my RHO opened 1 !S and I held

!S: xx
!H: AJx
!D: AK
!C: AKQT95


Hmm. I doubled, Lho bid 3 !S back to me and I bid 4 !C. Partner, holding one useless point (he had Jxx in !D) and a six card !H suit bid 4 !H, losing two !S and one !H. A good result. 4 !S would have been off only one (we get a !C, a !H, and two !D,) , but they were red, we were white, and no doubt it all looked like a guess to everyone.

Anyway, I think that defensive bidding could be a very interesting and useful discussion, as this thread illustrates.


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Ken
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