questions and comments

[kenberg]

The hand below is link in long form, sorry about that.



http://www.bridgebase.com/tools/handviewer.html?bbo=y&lin=st%7C%7Cmd%7C4SAKJT82HA98D5CT52%2CS754HQJTDQT8CA987%2CSHK76432DAJ9743CK%2CSQ963H5DK62CQJ643%7Csv%7CN%7Cah%7CBoard%202%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C1S%7Can%7CMajor%20suit%20opening%20--%205%2B%20%21S%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C3H%7Can%7CInvite%20--%206%2B%20%21H%3B%202-%20%21S%3B%209-11%20HCP%3B%20%21HQ%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C4H%7Can%7C2%2B%20%21H%3B%205%2B%20%21S%3B%2015%2B%20HCP%3B%2016-19%20total%20points%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C4S%7Can%7CCue%20bid%20--%206%2B%20%21H%3B%202-%20%21S%3B%2011-%20HCP%3B%20%21HQ%3B%20%21SA%3B%2013%2B%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7C5H%7Can%7C2%2B%20%21C%3B%202%2B%20%21D%3B%202%2B%20%21H%3B%205%2B%20%21S%3B%2017%2B%20HCP%3B%20no%20%21CAK%3B%20no%20%21DAK%3B%2017-%20total%20points%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cmb%7CP%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CCT%7C


I have questions and comments, everyone is invited to join in.

First the bidding:

The1 seems right, now what does N do? 

Is the N hand worth a game forcing 2/1 bid of 2 ? The 6-6 shape is nice, the stiff K might be, and was, useless.  Let's suppose that we think this is only invitational strength. I was playing with the bots, and they play that 1 - 3 is 6+ hearts and invitational strength. Very useful here. If not playing that, but wishing to invite, i assume that N bids 1 NT expecting a response of 2m over which he bids 3 . Except that on this hand, S rebids 2 . Is 3 still an invite in hearts? I guess it should be. But I am not so sure everyone plays it that way. The Gib approach of 1 - 3 as 6+ and invitational is also the Bridge World Standard approach so maybe there is something to it!  So far so good, Gib, but now I disagree with his next choice. I naturally raised 3 to 4 , after which Gib decided to try for slam with a 4 cue bid.  For one thing, a void in my suit is not necessarily all that useful but a more fundamental point is that the 3 was an invitation that I accepted. By going on over 4 Gib is effectively saying "You can play in 3 by passing, but you cannot play in 4 because if you bid 4 I will press on". There should be a way to play in 4 , the choice should not be having to sign off in 3 or goon to 5.

Now as to the play: Yes I can make 5 by playing it differently but it seems to me that cashing the two top hearts is the best bet. If the hearts are 2-2 then nothing else is needed, 11 tricks are in plain sight.  With the hearts 3-1 and the diamonds 3-3, as they are, I can succeed with a different line: Ruff diamonds twice in dummy to establish the suit but that does not look like the best shot. Maybe I am missing something. Even with trumps 3-1 there is still a weak chance of bring in the contract on the line I chose.

Anyway, I found this to be a fun hand and I think the issue of what 1 - 3 !h means is worthy of thought.

[Curls77]

Great question you raised Ken, but I am sure my answer is not what you looked for.
I adopted play Bergen raises, not only coz I liked to know of 5-4 fits, but coz I wanted be rid of 1M-3m invitational bids. Nowdays, most of us open so light, that 1H-3C for example, will put opener in such hard spot where any call is wrong.

On example you gave, auction, even with bot, I hope would be:
1S-2H (GF, yes)
2S-3D
4H (all pass)

[kenberg]

Yes, if you see this as worth a game forcing 2/1 then there is no problem.  You can still get to the problem by weakening the hand slightly. Change the !CK to a Q or J or whatever is needed so that you look at the hand and decide that it is almost but not quite good enough for a game force. As you can see, even if the were the 3, you can make 4 here, but it helps that partner has   Axx. At any rate, weaken the hand so that wherever you think you are willing to make a game forcing 2/1, the hand you hold is just slightly weaker. You want to invite not force, and you want to invite in hearts, how do you do it? The bots and BWS bid a direct 3 .

So that's the problem that I have in mind: Assume that you have a hand so that you want to invite 4 but it is not strong enough to force to game. How  do you invite 4 ? The bot/BWS approach has its merits, but I am sure  not everyone does it that way, hence the post. I looked around a bit in Bergen and I did not see how he handles this. I am pretty sure that some would start with 1 NT intending to bid 3 , invitational, with the hand that they regarded as almost but not quite game forcing. Those that are deemed worthy of a game forcing 2 are easy, just as you say. You bid 2 .

Maybe someone will come up with a reference. Right now, the bots and BWS are all I have for references.

I presented the hand as it is because I agree with the bot's assessment that it is only worthy of an invitation (and not worthy of going on after the raise to 4 ). But the hand can still  illustrate a problem just by weakening it a bit.