University of IAC > 2/1 Talk

Greetings everyone, and a first try.

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kenberg:
I am really happy to see this forum. I have long thought it would be useful to have a place where we can discuss problems that arise.  Frequently we are unsure of what partner intends.

Yleexotee has recently written up a spreadsheet on suggested default agreements. His choices are not always the choices I would make, but nonetheless I can happily play them with the benefit that everyone is on the same page. 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jO2sp_kWS5DJRveNIEZ0HNprxDUyzTcNgsd1ex-A-9U/edit#gid=864562715
I really advocate looking through this. Of course everyone can play what they want, but often neither partner is quite sure what they are playing.
 
I will give two examples from recent play.

Here is something that came up in Hoki's tourney today (April 5).

The deal is on my left, I hold

JT98
KQ
A762
Q82

We are vul, if it matters.

The bidding begins
Pass 1S  Pass ?
Ok, this is worth a limit raise to 3S.
BUT
Perhaps partner will take 1S-3S as Bergen?
I solved the problem by borrowing a point or so and bidding a Jacoby 2NT.
All was well, 4S making.

This happens often.

Here is a hand from the other day:
This time I am in third seat, everyone vul.

AKQ843
54
JT
A74

 P     P    1S    P
3D   P     ?

Ok, we have agreed to play Bergen. But by a passed hand? Well, what else could 3D be? But reverse Bergen or straight Bergen? Well, I should have a good shot at 4S no matter which, so I bid it. Making 5.

There was some friendly discussion after this one. Partner, yleexotee, had only three spades but just under an opening bid and we had not had enough discussion for him to be sure what I would take as what. So, in much the same way as I did in the first hand above, he took a practical approach.  BillHiggins, a kib, commented that many use Drury. I do so myself, but I know the coyote doesn't.

Comment: Whatever the relative merits of Bergen, or Drury, or neither after a third hand opening, clearly you do not want to be using both Bergen and Reverse Drury. If you do, then after a third hand 1S, the calls of 2C, 2D, 3C, 3D all show spades. That's overkill. So choices have to be made. And it's best if we agree.

The two examples that I gave above worked out fine. But sometimes the confusion is insurmountable.

So I am thanking Joe (ylee...) for writing his document and I am  suggesting that people consider using it as as a default when there has been no opportunity for discussion. I'm not fond of Bergen, I like Drury, I am ok with either, but what I really like is to know which one, if either, we are playing. And when. On over a double, for example?

Again I am really glad to see this Forum and I hope we can have many productive discussions.


Enjoy
Ken

OliverC:
Nice one, Ken!

Sitting around watching Opps discuss their system for 10 minutes isn't much fun. Similarly Bidding can be a bit of a mine-filled bog if you have no idea what gadgets partner plays. This initiative to give 2/1 players a framework from which to work is great.

kenberg:
We will see where this all goes, but I'll say a couple more things about simple variants on the situation described above.



Suppose we have gotten far enough that we agree we are playing Reverse Bergen. The uncontested auction begins 1H-3C-?


The first case:
What would 3D by opener be? A simple answer: It means that opener is not a bare minimum, but not sure he wants to be in game. So 1H-3C-3D-3H is passable, the 3C was just barely worth 3C. No doubt other meanings could be ascribed to 3D, but this one seems natural to me. I think of it as one of the selling points for the Reverse Bergen call.

The second case: Again uncontested.
P-1S
Is P-1S- 1NT still forcing?  Mostly the forcing NT was invented to take care of problems arising from 1S-2C/D/H being game forcing. It has other pluses, but it has drawbacks.

In the case at hand, partner held
JT7
AKT6
Q732
J9
Had I been a first or second position 1S opener, 1NT seems right. But I was third position so we, perhaps,  have to worry whether I might pass 1NT.
My thoughts:
This is a Drury hand if we are playing Drury. So I think that Drury players could get along fine by playing that P-1S-1NT is passable. Without Drury, I think P-1S-1NT should still be played as forcing. I am far from certain about this.
We were (well, I think we were) not playing Drury so then I think 1NT is still forcing. As it happened, this time, I had
AKQ843
54
JT
A74
so it didn't matter: P-1S-1NT-3S-4S.

Oddly, we got 6+ imps on this. Everyone (almost) was there but some did not make it. There are nine tricks on top and the 10th can come either from ruffing a club or establishing the diamond Q.

Anyway, I am hoping we discuss some basic points along these lines. We have to know whether 1NT by a passed hand is forcing. If we are playing Bergen we have to know which version (as Bergen originally wrote it, there are other features that are seldom played). We have to know if it is on over a double. Some play BROMAD (the B is still for Bergen) after the X, and that changes things.

With face to face partners, these things usually get discussed naturally. Maybe over a beer, or coffee, or whatever, but they get discussed. Online, often I have no idea what partner intends. So I am hoping this will clear the air a bit.

OliverC:
Pass - 1 !S
1NT - ??

I think most people who use 2/1 (or Precision, for that matter) will play this as forcing, regardless of the fact that Responder is a passed hand. The reason is that the Forcing 1NT says absolutely nothing about the shape of Responder's hand. They might be sat there with a yarborough, void spades and 7-card Hearts, for all Opener knows.

bAbsG:
Great forum idea Oliver!

In a friendly game with an untested partner, can't I just ask to the table what the bid means?  I applaud Joe's 2/1 framework and appreciate the time that he has put into designing it.  But at the moment if I were in the midst of bidding, having looked at his 2/1 system sheets out and finding them overwhelming at first glance, I would not be opening the URL and trying to figure out what my partner meant by his bid.  I would rather just chat "Bergen?" and discuss afterwards.  Just me.

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