Author Topic: xyz/2way nmf, some details  (Read 171 times)

kenberg

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xyz/2way nmf, some details
« on: January 31, 2018, 03:46:27 PM »
In Dave Greenough's lesson yesterday there was some discussion of xyz after 1 !D - 1 !S - 1NT.  I have a reference with details and  examples for those who are interested.  As near as I can tell, after 1x-1y-1NT, 2 way new minor is simply an alternate name for the broader convention xyz.
I believe this write-up is in total agreement with what Dave said.

http://www.lajollabridge.com/LJUnit/Education/2-WayNewMinorForcing.pdf


The link has a hand on page 6 similar to the one that came up in the lesson. After 1 !D - 1  !H - 1NT,  responder has an 11 count and five clubs. He can simply raise to 2NT natural and invitational.  But how about first bidding 2 !C,  this forces opener to bid 2 !D, and then bidding 2NT?  What should this be? Dave explained that one of these ways shows clubs, the other doesn't, and different people play it differently as to which shows five clubs. It's not something that arises frequently so I think simple is good, and the following seems simple (to me): A direct raise of 1NT to 2NT is invitational with the expectation that partner will pass or bid 3NT. Going through the 2 !C - 2 !D - 2NT route is also an invitation to 3NT but suggests that if opener does not want to play in game then he might, on some holdings,  want to get out in 3 !C.

The hand in the lesson began 1 !D - 1 !S - 1NT but again responder had five clubs and an 11 count.

This matches with a general approach that I like: A direct bid means what it sounds like it means, a longer sequence suggests options other than the obvious. So here, a direct 2NT says let's play in NT at the 2 or 3 level, going through the relay says maybe we play in 2NT, maybe 3NT, or, in some cases, maybe 3 !C.

The write-up suggests just skipping this and raising to 2NT. Ok by me.

As mentioned, the write-up says what Dave said. So why am I bothering? Well, if someone wanted to play this, he could suggest to his partner: Let's play it this way. A while back I was playing with someone and we agreed to do exactly that. It's a pretty decent convention and, with many (but still not all) details written down, we had no mishaps. Well, at least not any caused by confusion over the meaning of a sequence.


Ken

kenberg

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Re: xyz/2way nmf, some details
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2018, 01:25:35 PM »
I have been thinking a bit about an auction on page 6 of the cited notes.

1 !D     1 !H
1NT     2 !C (-> !D)
2 !D     3 !C

The notes say, and I believe Dave said,  that this is an invitational 5-5 in !H and !C.  So it's the standard way, I guess. But is it best? I will take the basic structure as a given. After 2 !C over 1NT opener must bid 2 !D. Responder with a weak hand passes this, any other call is invitational. The forcing sequences all start with 2 !D over 1NT.

I raise the question of what happens when responder, hearing a 1 !D opening, has six clubs and four hearts.


First let's look at a similar but not identical sequence also on page 6:

1 !C     1 !H
1NT     2 !C (-> !D)
2 !D     3 !C

The opening call here is 1 !C  instead of 1 !D. This time the notes say this is invitational with a club fit, but only four hearts to go with the five clubs. 

I don't think the notes mention it, but it is then logical to play that

1 !C     1 !H
1NT     3 !C

is a weak hand with four hearts and five (or more) clubs. Logical because the strong hand would start with 2 !D and the invitational hand would start with 2 !C so what's left is the weak hand.

Now back to 1 !D - 1M - 1NT. Responder can have six clubs and four cards in M. With a strong hand he of course bids 2 !D. But he could also have an invitational hand or he could have a weak hand. If going through 2 !C and then bidding 3 !C shows 5-5, then there is only one call left to show the 6-4. If 1 !D -1M -1NT - 3 !C is an invitational 6-4  then we have no call for the weak 6-4.


Ok, it's maybe not a huge problem, mostly because when we have a weak shapely hand opposite a 12-14 hand the opponents are probably in the auction before we get to bring out any convention.  But still. At least we have to agree on whether 1 !D -M -1NT - 3 !C is a weak 6-4 or an invitational 6-4. I have known people who play it invit and people who have played it weak. Most common is that it is undiscussed.

I was thinking of an alternative. Consider

1 !D     1 !H
1NT     2 !C (-> !D)
2 !D     2 !H

This is an invitational hand with five hearts. If opener has three hearts, nobody cares how many clubs responder has. If opener has two hearts and accepts the invitation with 3NT then there might well be 9 tricks in NT. If opener has two hearts and declines the invitation with 2NT, responder could still bid 3 !C if he has the 5-5 hand.

Responder with the 5-5 bids 3 !C directly over 2 !D according to the notes. My suggestion has him bidding 3 !C also, but doing so only after it is clear that they don't have a heart fit.  This allows us to still play  that a 3 !C call over the forced 2 !D shows long clubs four not five hearts, and invitational values while directly bidding 3 !C over 1NT is the weak hand with four hearts and long clubs.

No doubt bidding theorists have though of this, there are very few things that they haven't thought of, but I don't see what's wrong with it.  Among other things, it means that after 1m-1M-1NT, the call of 2 !C followed by 3 !C shows fitting clubs and four hearts regardless of whether m is !C or !D. In the notes, the 3 !C shows four !H if the opening m is clubs and five !H if the opening m is !D. This is a memory challenge for a sequence that doesn't come up very often.

Being retired means having enough time to worry about such things. It's probably not at the top of anyone's list.

Ken