Author Topic: A simple situation that I have not thought through  (Read 4257 times)

kenberg

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A simple situation that I have not thought through
« on: October 15, 2017, 01:29:30 PM »
You open 1 !C, 1 !H on your left, 1 !S by partner (this shows five, he would double with four), and 2 !S on your right,  showing good values and a !H fit. How would you sort out the following possible continuations by you: X, 3 !H, 3 !S ? Opener might have three spades or four spades, or of course fewer than three spades, and he might have a bare opener or a pretty decent hand.  I was thinking that X could guarantee three cards, but could also be done on four cards with minimal values.

It's a very simple sequence but I really have no idea of whether  there is a consensus on it. When it happened at the table i alerted the X planning to say that it was a support double but then, when Lho inquired, I acknowledged that we had not really talked of specifically this sequence. indeed partner had three spades and all was well. But I got to thinking about it. And them playing online I had a similar situation except that I, as opener, had four spades and a minimal opener.  I wanted to say "I bid 3 !S but don't expect much".  Perhaps a double followed by 3 !S, assuming 3 !H gets passed back to me, is the way to say that. If it is at 4 !H when it gets back to me I can just shut up. I realize sometimes I should also just shut up if 3 !H comes around to me, but at least sometimes I will want to bid when I hold four cards.

I cannot recall ever seeing this discussed, despite it being simple and presumably common.
Ken

OliverC

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Re: A simple situation that I have not thought through
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2017, 05:52:17 PM »
Personally, I play
  • Double as "competitive" so invitational in Spades,
  • 3 !H as game-forcing looking for a further description of Partner's hand, probably agreeing Spades but maybe not, and
  • 3 !S as merely competitive.
Oliver (OliverC)
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kenberg

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Re: A simple situation that I have not thought through
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2017, 09:13:27 PM »
Making 1 !C - (1 !H ) - 1 !S - (2 -S) - X stronger than 1 !C - (1 !H ) - 1 !S - (2 -S) - 3 !S, both showing spades. Very reasonable. Presumably the other way around is also reasonable, I can see an argument for either way, the crucial thing is to agree.

Suppose the opponent's suit is !D. Then  !C - (1 !D ) - 1 !S no longer promises a five card suit, for me anyway. Now sorting on length can be more important. Do you make any changes?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 01:36:28 AM by kenberg »
Ken

OliverC

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Re: A simple situation that I have not thought through
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2017, 09:25:29 AM »
1 !C - (1 !D ) - 1 !S would still show 5-card for me, because a double is still negative.

The difference for me is between
1 !D - (1 !S) - 2 !H - (2 !S) - X = Competitive Double where 3 !H is only competitive
and
1 !D - (No) - 1M - (??) - X = Support Double (or redouble).

On the other hand, I play Lebensohl in any natural competitive sequence at the 2-level, so in the first of those sequences I can differentiate between a fast 3 !H or 4 !H (pre-emptive, so more shape and less hcp), a slow 3 !H (competitive only) and the Competitive Double (genuinely invitational).
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 09:33:22 AM by OliverC »
Oliver (OliverC)
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BillHiggin

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Re: A simple situation that I have not thought through
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2017, 02:14:50 AM »
X = 3 card support (denies 4 card support) - if extra strength bid 3 !H next round.
     (if I ever did this with 4 spades, it would be a deviation - i.e. some sort of mastermind bid)
3 !H = 4 card support, extra strength
3 !S = 4 card support, min (Law bid)

In the auction 1 !C (1 !D) 1M, I would not expect that to show a 5 card major and consider such a requirement as wrong! If you insist on 5 card freebids in that auction, expect to be forever punished as responder with 4-2 majors. Multiple genuine experts (i.e. not myself) have confirmed this to me in the past, and the BBO Advanced FD file specifies 4+ for these auctions (but 5 for 1 !C (1 !H) 1 !S.

OliverC

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Re: A simple situation that I have not thought through
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2017, 10:23:03 AM »
Yes. My attitude towards this is definitely coloured by the fact that I am almost always playing Precision, so 1 !C - (1 !D) - X means something totally different anyway. The only time this sort of sequence arises for me is 1 !D - (1M) - X.
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kenberg

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Re: A simple situation that I have not thought through
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2017, 08:17:19 PM »
X = 3 card support (denies 4 card support) - if extra strength bid 3 !H next round.
     (if I ever did this with 4 spades, it would be a deviation - i.e. some sort of mastermind bid)
3 !H = 4 card support, extra strength
3 !S = 4 card support, min (Law bid)

In the auction 1 !C (1 !D) 1M, I would not expect that to show a 5 card major and consider such a requirement as wrong! If you insist on 5 card freebids in that auction, expect to be forever punished as responder with 4-2 majors. Multiple genuine experts (i.e. not myself) have confirmed this to me in the past, and the BBO Advanced FD file specifies 4+ for these auctions (but 5 for 1 !C (1 !H) 1 !S.

I am enjoying wind and waves on the Oregon coast so I have not much been online, but yes, 1 !C - (1  !D ) -X shows both majors as I play. So 1 !C - (1 !D) -1M is often on four cards. As you say, I think that this is pretty standard. After 1 !C - (1 !D) -1M-(2 !D) we are in a support X situation.
Ken