IAC Forums

Chew the Fat! => Sleight of Hand => Topic started by: kenberg on October 10, 2020, 01:40:46 PM

Title: One No Trump and then?
Post by: kenberg on October 10, 2020, 01:40:46 PM
In the last 24 hours I have encountered three hands where there was a potential for confusion about the meaning of an auction after a 1NT call. In each case I have played it to have different meanings when I have played with different partners, so i believe it is safe to say that there is ambiguity if there has not been discussion. Here are the three auctions, which I give up to the point of ambiguity:

A. This is from the MSC. It is a contested auction, starting on my right with 1 !H and I overcall 1NT:
1 !H - 1NT - 2 !C - 2 !S
Ok Partner could have bid 2 !H, if that would be a transfer to  !S. Assuming 2 !S is natural then I ask: What would 2 !H have been? Or perhaps 2 !S shows both spades and diamonds, whereas he would have just transferred if he had spades only? This is unlikely, as surely in this contest format they would have said so. And, btw, what would a double of 2 !C have meant? Had I opened 1 NT and then Lho bid 2 !C I expect X to be Stayman (unless 2 !C showed both majors). And I would expect that to be the case here, if partner had doubled 2 !C. But now that I see that, on this auction,  we do not seem to be using 2 !H as a transfer to !S, I have to wonder whether a double of 2 !C is still being played as Stayman.

So the general question can be put:
After the contested auction begins  1 !H - 1NT - 2 !C, what are the meanings of the various bids by fourth hand?

I am a strong believer in going to a reliable source for answers. Reinventing the wheel gets tiresome, especially if it means inventing a different wheel with each partner. I would be happy to just do it as Mike Lawrence says or do it as Larry Cohen says or whatever, as long as it is written down.


B. This was from yesterday's indy. I opened 1NT, Lho overcalled a DONT 2 !D, partner doubled, Rho bid 2 !H. What is 2 !H?

This one is easier to find references for. Larry Cohen, a popularizer of DONT (and maybe a co-inventor with Bergen of the convention, I'm not sure), says it shows !H. Without the double, 2 !H asks for pass or correct, depending on the DONTer's second suit. With the X, then XX asks for the second suit, and 2 !H shows hearts.

This worked out miraculously well for us. I had opened 1 NT on a 5=3=2=3 shape, I decided to chance that 2 !H was intended to ask for a second suit and that Lho's second suit was probably !H so I bid 2 !S which pard raised to 4, making 7. I could have been held to 5 if Lho had led the stiff !C but s/he chose a !H after which I will make 12 tricks at least.

But the point here is what the 2 !H call should mean after the X. I say go with Cohen.


C. This is an uncontested auction from yesterday's indy;
1NT - 2 !D   (correction, thanks)
2 !H - 4 !C.

Ok, what's 4 !C ? I have played that it shows a splinter, I have played that it is key card blackwood. Bridge World Standard says "four clubs is a key-card-ask if opener showed a major, otherwise shows four=six in the majors" but splinter is common and I play it that way with some.

Partner indeed intended this as a splinter but I was uncertain of just how to take it. We landed on our feet, through luck rather than any good choices on my part.


I intend the above as a congenial and realistic  presentation of ambiguity. Responses to these and other similar problems  are very welcome.
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: blubayou on October 13, 2020, 02:01:28 PM
re:  item B   I thought that 2D  asked for 2nd suit, when there is no X by responder hence 2H would b hearts in either case?
                        (never mind--I see that the 2C interference was a typo, and it was actually a rather pitiful 2D call)

For item C-- there should be no ambiguity in serious play that 4C  is RKG when stayman gets a major rebid from opener  (Opposite major at the 3-level 'demands' relay to then show any splinter-suit on the following round).   "Nobody"   plays 4NT rebid as control-asking after this start, (HA!)   and if there is a better use for  "1NT, 2C; 2M, 4C" than control asking it is certainly not the undiscussed agreement.
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: Masse24 on October 14, 2020, 04:03:33 PM
re:  item B   I thought that 2D  asked for 2nd suit, when there is no X by responder hence 2H would b hearts in either case?
                        (never mind--I see that the 2C interference was a typo, and it was actually a rather pitiful 2D call)

For item C-- there should be no ambiguity in serious play that 4C  is RKG when stayman gets a major rebid from opener  (Opposite major at the 3-level 'demands' relay to then show any splinter-suit on the following round).   "Nobody"   plays 4NT rebid as control-asking after this start, (HA!)   and if there is a better use for  "1NT, 2C; 2M, 4C" than control asking it is certainly not the undiscussed agreement.

"Serious play" implies a serious partnership, and therefore--agreements. While 4 !C as RKCB (I prefer NOT to use the word "Gerber") for the major is a common agreement, and is actually BWS2017, my preference is to use 4 !D as RKCB. This allows 4 !C to be used as suit agreement with no shortness, slam interest. The minimal amount of extra room this creates is clearly better than using 4 !C as RKCB.

One thing I will agree with, even with no agreement and no discussion, opposite an experienced bidder I would assume the jump to 4NT to be a quantitative raise, denying support for opener's major. Going further, even with no agreements, I would expect an experienced partner to just know that a 3-level bid of the "other major" was suit-agreement and slamming.

But as Ken pointed out, this was an Indy. So it's a guess as to what the jump to 4 !C was. Obviously a guess as to partner's experience and knowledge is part of the equation. But a blind guess is probably as good as you can do.  ;)
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: kenberg on October 14, 2020, 08:34:45 PM
In advertising for the indy, iac std is suggested as the default. I just checked, and iac std plays the 4 !C as a splinter.

But my knowledge of iac std is a weak, and often partners are not playing it. For example I wasn't.

Browsing the net, I see the 4 !C after 1NT - 2 !C - 2 !H  is sometimes played as showing six spades and four hearts, offering a choice of games.

I started playing bridge in1961. I had no money, I was a grad student, I was married, my wife was pregnant, we could afford a deck of cards and some beer. At that time, everyone agreed that a bid meant whatever Charlie Goren said it meant. That time is long gone.

Oh. In case you are worried, my pregnant wife let the rest of us drink the beer.
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: Masse24 on October 14, 2020, 09:08:52 PM
Oh my.  :-[

IAC Standard has 4m as splinters, but no bid to agree trump without shortage and express slam interest?! Why?

Time for an update.

At the very least, if no intention to use Baze or Modified-Baze, then resuscitate the good old Goldway Raise (3oM) as an omnibus "trump-agreement-slam-try." 
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: blubayou on October 18, 2020, 11:39:34 PM
Hi, Todd,   Your reversal of the meanings of 4C(RKC)   and 4D(point-count slam-try raise)  is hereby adopted,    But tell us  what the extra bid so saved --the chance for pard to bid diamonds over 4C-- is used for..Is it a diamond cue,  or something more esoteric?
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: Masse24 on October 19, 2020, 06:46:39 PM
Yes, the extra space is simply used for control bids. Obviously, not a whole lot of extra space is created, but any extra space is beneficial in slam auctions.
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: kenberg on October 20, 2020, 02:22:45 PM
Any thoughts on me problem A?
Rho opens 1 !H. I overcall 1NT, Lho bids 2 !C.

What meaning would you attach to various calls by partner? 
Would X be penalty or Stayman ? (I assume that if I open 1NT and Lho comes in with 2 !C then X is Stayman).
Would 2 !H be a transfer? If not, what is it? As mentioned, the MSC problem had pard bidding 2 !S, not 2 !H, with 2 !S  presumed natural.

Undiscussed, I would take X as Stayman, I would take 2 !H as a transfer, and I would be wondering just what 2 !S is.  Possibly both 2 !H and 2 !S would show spades, with 2 !H being the stronger version. I will be interested in seeing what my Bridge World says when it gets here.
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: jcreech on October 20, 2020, 04:34:57 PM
I would assume that if you play that system is on over NT overcall carries over to interference .  The only exception would be, in your example, 2D transfer to 2H should not be normal (duh), so unless it has been specifically discussed, I would just treat as forcing, show me something more.
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: kenberg on October 20, 2020, 07:34:38 PM
possibly 2 !D should be a natural non-forcing bid
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: wackojack on October 21, 2020, 11:19:01 AM
One hand from my work-out last night was very relevant to the discussion here:
♠ K1084     ♠ AQJ3
♥ Q93        ♥ AJ10
♦ A4          ♦ KQ
♣ KQ32    ♣ A764

Not playing puppet it went:
                            2NT   20-22
3♣   Stayman   3♠   4 cards
4♣   ?      
This bid was meant to be agreeing spades and showing a control in clubs which looked a reasonable assumption to me.  However, that is not how some interpret this bid.
GIB notes:  After 2N-3♣-3♠:
•   3NT    Signoff (promises 4 hearts)
•    4♣/4♦ 5+ card suit. Interest in slam.
•    4♥      Artificial slam try with 4+ spades
•    4NT     Invitational to 6NT

So, 4♣ shows 5+ clubs and presumably 4 hearts.  Hmm ……….
With 2425 distribution going over 3NT looks perilous.  With say 1426 distribution and a slammy looking hand you might now want to investigate 6♣.  However, this type of hand would be very rare and I would rather cater for the way more common case where you have found your 4-4 spade fit and want to investigate slam by cue bidding below the game level.

BWS:  I see nothing about this.

Playing Puppet Stayman the problem goes away:
                     2NT   20-22
3♣   Puppet   3♦   4♥ or 4♠
3♥   4 spades   3♠   Agrees ♠

It is interesting that Puppet Stayman gives you the extra room. Then the bidding could continue:   
4♣   Control   4♦   Control
4NT   1430   5♦   3 keys
5♥   Q♠?   6♦   Q♠ + Q♦*
6♥   K♥?   6♠   No K♥
pass         

•   The interesting thing here is that because opener had cued 4♦ showing the K♦, then 6♦ would not just repeat this bit of information, it should be showing the Q♦.  Of course, with these 2 hands this piece of info is not vital but in other circumstances could be. 
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: kenberg on October 21, 2020, 11:52:45 AM
I am glad to see the hand from yesterday discussed.  I gave it to the bots (who also do not play Puppet) and it began:
2NT - 3 !C - 3 !S - 4 !H. The bots self-alert and the 4 !H was explained as agreeing to spades. I assume that raising 3 !S to 4 !S  would also agree to !S so I further assume that 4 !H agrees to !S and suggests a slam might be possible. As I recall, after that opener just bid 4 !S, then responder launched rkc and they ended in 6 !S, a sensible contract.

We have a total of 35 highs so and an 8 card spade fit so a grand is possible, but we would need some things to be better.   For example, the !D suit wastes values. But even if, say, the !H T were the !D T, so now we have three !D tricks instead of two, this is not enough, we still would require a !H finesse. With 35 highs and a fit, the grand might be there, and partnerships with agreements that are both extensive and well chosen might find it when it is, but ini ant partnership that I have ever had some gambling would be required.

I think that it was with this hand that someone mentioned the clash between Puppet and Smolen. The idea is this. Suppose there is a 2NT opener and responder has five spades and four hearts. If he bids 3 !C Puppet and hears a 3NT response he cannot check for the 5-3 !S fit.  With five !H and four !S the problem is solvable: Transfer to !H and then bid 3 !S.  But how about the five !S four !H problem? The Muppet solution (as I recall)is to interchange the 3 !H call with the 3 !NT call. So over 3 !C a bid of 3NT shows five !H, and a bid of 3 !H denies four of either major. This works, I guess it works I have never played it, but further details are needed. Over the 3 !H the usual situation is that responder does not have five !S and wants to sign off in 3NT. He does this by bidding 3 !S, which opener converts to 3NT. On the hand where he has five !She bids 3NT, a transfer to 4 !S if opener has three.  A lot of memory work for an infrequent situation.  But w/o it. there is a cost to playing Puppet when responder holds five !S and four !H.
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: kenberg on October 21, 2020, 02:42:43 PM
That hand of Jack's created a lot of discussion. I was a minority, perhaps a minority of 1, on the following. I will take the auction as gioven, with the meanings as construed by the participants.

 W       E
2NT - 3 !C
3 !S - 4 !C
4 !D - 4NT
5 !D - 5 !H
6 !S - ?

Ok, it could be argued, and was argued, that 4 !D by E already showed either the A or the K, and so the response to 5 !H, when E holds the trump Q, will be concerned only with the !H K.  but that was not how it was understood, so let us assume that after 5 !H then W bids 6 !D. Now what?

My view is that an E bid of 6 !H should now show the !H K. Others felt it should ask partner to bid the grand if holding the !H K. I will say why I think 5 !H should show the K.

In general, after the 2NT opening, we assume that responder is better able to make the final decision. Opener is less likely to be able to say with confidence that the hand belongs in 7 if responder holds the !H K.  For example, nothing in the auction so far prevents responder from having !H AQJx.  If so, and if 6 !H is bid and shows the K, responder can say "Hey, this is great, I know from partner's 3 !S that he has at most three !H and now, with the fitting K, I think we should have a good shot at the grand. Otoh, if responder's hearts are Axx he can say "Ok, the !H K will be a trick, but I still do not see just where 13 tricks are coming from".

Long ago Reese remarked that bridge is easier if players bid what they have instead of what they don't have. Of course there are exceptions, but I think that when one hand is fairly well defined, for example by opening 2NT, it is best if he continues on by bidding what he has and letting responder use his best judgment rather than having responder just take orders "bid 7 !S if you have the !H K, but not if you don't have the !H K" from opener. Who know, with a different hand for responder he might be able to count to 13 as soon as he hears about the !H K. It's responder's hand that is not yet limited in strength.

Anyway, I was clearly in the minority but I have not yet changed my mind.
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: Masse24 on October 21, 2020, 10:23:07 PM
I’m going to hijack this thread even further (sorry Ken) by reiterating my disagreement with the middle of the Wacko’s Workout slam auction. The hands:

!S AQJ3
!H AJT
!D KQ
!C A764

!S KT84
!H Q93
!D A4
!C KQ32

The auction:
2NT — 3 !C
3 !S — ??

During Jack’s session, I waited until after the lengthy RKCB/Control Bid discussion to bring up the following: trump must first be agreed. Bidding 4 !H is the way to do so. I went so far as to chat, “It’s Standard!”

Much of the room bought into the “4 !C agrees !S as trump and is a control bid looking for slam” idea. But what about a hand with four hearts and five-plus clubs wanting to sniff at slam? Possibly even (GASP!) a club slam? How do you show it? With the above scheme—you can’t! In other words, 4m bids are natural.

Determining what is, and what is not, “Standard” when playing 2/1 is a question rarely if ever settled. I know this. So, in penance for improper use of the word “standard,” I shall self-flagellate to save you the trouble.

But I challenge anyone to find an authoritative source who suggests that 4m agrees trump. Help me out here, I cannot find one. My bridge library is not as extensive as many of you have, so maybe there is a dust-covered tome out there with this elusive treatment? Please share if you can find it.

What about the “Other Major” at the cheapest level? Here are two:
1.   https://www.bridgebum.com/puppet_stayman.php (https://www.bridgebum.com/puppet_stayman.php)
      Marc Smith article about Puppet. It includes a short blurb on this auction.

2.   https://bridgewinners.com/article/view/suit-agreement-and-slam-move-after-2nt-open/  (https://bridgewinners.com/article/view/suit-agreement-and-slam-move-after-2nt-open/)
      Bridgewinners poll from Feb. 2020. With 99 votes in, 85% (Including world class players, Kit too) choose OM at cheapest level to agree trump.

3.   There are others.

If I ever partner Kit, I expect that he would field a 4m bid after a positive Stayman response as natural. His vote in the Bridgewinners poll confirms this. In the IAC—you make your best guess.
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: wackojack on October 22, 2020, 11:39:44 AM
I’m going to hijack this thread even further (sorry Ken) by reiterating my disagreement with the middle of the Wacko’s Workout slam auction. The hands:
!S AQJ3
!H AJT
!D KQ
!C A764

!S KT84
!H Q93
!D A4
!C KQ32

The auction:
2NT — 3 !C
3 !S — ??

During Jack’s session, I waited until after the lengthy RKCB/Control Bid discussion to bring up the following: trump must first be agreed. Bidding 4 !H is the way to do so. I went so far as to chat, “It’s Standard!”

I can certainly see the virtue in having this agreement but not sure how much following an agreement has to have before it is called "standard"  One could argue that puppet stayman 3 !C response to 2NT is "standard" and therefore any continuations after a 3 !C 4 card Stayman is "non standard"  And when you use puppet Stayman this problem does not arise as I pointed out in my earlier post. 

However, as Marc Smith pointed puppet does not get over this problem if the 2NT opener does have a 5 card major.  Say opener has :
 !S KQ
 !H AKQ53
 !D A84
 !C Q105

opposite
 !S A795
 !H J6
 !D 7
 !C KJ9632

2NT      3 !C
3 !H      ?
Then you need 4 !C to be natural to find the  !C slam and so a bid of the other major 3 !S would have to be the artificial bid to show 3 or 4 card support for partner's hearts and slam interest.

So I have to concede that 4  !C or 4 !D for that matter should be natural.  Fortunately this very rarely comes up.  If it were adopted by most iac players I would be willing to bet that it would be totally misused with 5m +4M hands finding themselves in unmakeable 6m or even 5m contract when 3NT would have been easy. 

Incidentally if we abandon "Puppet"  for "Muppet" Stayman then the bidding would go:  2NT-3 !C - 3NT - ?  So with 3 or 4 card  heart support and slam interest, responder would have to bid 4 !S.  This does not look very nice as it uses up precious cue bidding room. 
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: Masse24 on October 23, 2020, 02:10:35 AM
As for “how much following an agreement has to have before it is called standard,” that is the “rarely if ever settled” question I alluded to.

Treating 4m natural (after a positive Stayman response) as somehow being a “special agreement,” is backwards. In a natural system such as Standard American, 2/1, or SEF a suit bid as natural is generally our starting point. I would include it under the penumbra of “it’s just bridge.” And although a Bridgewinners poll is hardly the final word, the fact that 85% of relatively well-informed responders think it is so would steer me towards the description of “standard.”   

Whether Puppet Stayman (over 2NT) should be considered standard or not, I am not sure. I think it’s quite common with intermediate and advanced players, but I do not often see it with expert pairs. The usual objection, if I recall correctly, is information leakage. Personally, I prefer not to use it. Same goes for Muppet. I don’t see the gains as outweighing the drawbacks. But I will play either, much preferring Muppet if forced.

Regarding the problem created by including Muppet in the 2NT bidding ladder—yes, the leap to 4 !S to show suit agreement and slam aspirations eats a lot of space. Fortunately, smarter players than I have come up with solutions employing the “Switch Principle.”

But as you said, Jack, this rarely comes up. These continuations after the first one or two bids of a gadget are too often ignored. Fortunately, this rarely has an impact. But if I had a regular partner, I would want to discuss and work them all out.

About three weeks ago, Joe and I were discussing a 2NT structure. But we did not finish it. I would love to get the IAC crew assembled to cobble together a good, but workable 2NT structure. But on a new thread!  ;D
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: wackojack on October 23, 2020, 06:47:37 PM
Will this change your mind Ken?


In general, after the 2NT opening, we assume that responder is better able to make the final decision. Opener is less likely to be able to say with confidence that the hand belongs in 7 if responder holds the !H K.  For example, nothing in the auction so far prevents responder from having !H AQJx.  If so, and if 6 !H is bid and shows the K, responder can say "Hey, this is great, I know from partner's 3 !S that he has at most three !H and now, with the fitting K, I think we should have a good shot at the grand. Otoh, if responder's hearts are Axx he can say "Ok, the !H K will be a trick, but I still do not see just where 13 tricks are coming from".

Long ago Reese remarked that bridge is easier if players bid what they have instead of what they don't have. Of course there are exceptions, but I think that when one hand is fairly well defined, for example by opening 2NT, it is best if he continues on by bidding what he has and letting responder use his best judgment rather than having responder just take orders "bid 7 !S if you have the !H K, but not if you don't have the !H K" from opener. Who know, with a different hand for responder he might be able to count to 13 as soon as he hears about the !H K. It's responder's hand that is not yet limited in strength.

Anyway, I was clearly in the minority but I have not yet changed my mind.

The hands:

!S AQJ3
!H A??
!D KQ
!C A764

!S KT84
!H Q93
!D A4
!C KQ32

2NT                         3 !C (puppet)
3  !H (4 !S)              3 !S (agrees  !S)
4  !C (A or K !C)        4 !D (A or K  !D)
4  !H ( or K !H)         4NT (1430  !S)
5  !D (3)                  5  !H (Q !S?)
6  !D (Q !S +Q !D)    ?

Consider 6  !H to mean "I have K  !H and want partner to make the final decision 6 or 7 !S)
Disadvantage:  The limited hand makes the final decision.  What does it know about the unlimited hand? 
!S Kxxx
!H K??
!D A???
!C K???
It does not know that partner has the Q  !H or the Q  !C and it therefore cannot count 13 tricks.   

 Consider 6  !H to mean "Please bid 7  !S if you have the K  !H otherwise bid 6   !S
South has extras over what is already promised and is clearly in a position to count 13 tricks if North has K  !H. This would be consistent with:
!S AQxx
!H AKx?
!D KQx
!C Axx
Admittedly this hand has 22HCP.  I would open this 2NT and not 2 !C 2NT due to its 4333 distribution.  Nevertheless you would bid the same way had partner openend 2 !C followed by 2N. 

The general principle is that the unlimited hand asks and the limited hand tells.   
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: kenberg on October 23, 2020, 07:25:20 PM
I meant it as a general principle rather than for this particular hand. The Suth hand could be quite different, the North hand not so much.

nonetheless, I think it applies pretty well here, given that we take the previous bids to be as they were intended.  Suppose the N hand has the !H K and bids 6 !H showing it.
N looks at his hand and reviews the bidding. The intended meanings of the bids were such that S can assume that N has the !S Ak, now he hears of the !H K, he preciously heard of the !D K, and he has heard that they have all of the keys.


So let us first look at when N has the !H K:

!S AQ53
!H AK2
!D K2
!C A764

!S KT84
!H Q93
!D A4
!C KQ32

He can play N for at least the above.  Ok, this requires that both black suits break 3-2. But it is also just giving N 20 highs, so it is possible that if the clubs break 4-1 maybe N has the J. Or maybe N has !D Kxx and !C Axx. In these cases a 3-2 spade split will suffice.

If he has to worry about clubs splitting 4-1 or whether or not N has the !C J then yes, he has a bit to worry about. But whether they do or do not bid the grand it seems that S is probably in the better position to choose. He does not have a total map of the N hand, but he knows quite a bit.

And, with the hands as they actually were, where N does not have the !H K.  Since N doesn't have it, N bids 6 !S, S says to himself "What am we going to do about hearts?", and passes.

Summary, assuming 6 !H shows the K: On those hands where N has the !H K and bids 6 !H, S can be reasonably confident of the grand. On those hands where N lacks the !H K and so bids 6 !S, S will be concerned about the !h and, at least with the given hand, pass 6 !S. On a different hand he might go on, but he will be aware of the !H problem.
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: Masse24 on October 24, 2020, 01:18:46 AM

It is interesting that Puppet Stayman gives you the extra room. Then the bidding could continue:   
4♣   Control   4♦   Control
4NT   1430   5♦   3 keys
5♥   Q♠?   6♦   Q♠ + Q♦*
6♥   K♥?   6♠   No K♥
pass         

•   The interesting thing here is that because opener had cued 4♦ showing the K♦, then 6♦ would not just repeat this bit of information, it should be showing the Q♦.  Of course, with these 2 hands this piece of info is not vital but in other circumstances could be.

Um . . .

No.

Opener does not know that we know we have all the keycards. Using the hands in your sample, responder knows it is the !D K since he has the !D A.

As far as opener knows—at this point in the auction—we have four between us and we are asking for the trump queen to determine if a small slam is worthwhile. It is eminently possible on this auction for responder to have the !H K and NOT the !D A.

If partner asks for the trump queen—just use the standard method—show it by bidding the lowest king. Even if it has been shown previously.
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: wackojack on October 24, 2020, 07:19:05 AM
Umm. I have thought about it some more and cannot see your contention Todd.  Is my thinking muddled?  Here is my reasoning:

The hands:
Opener
   !S  AQJ3
   !H AJ10
   !D KQ
   !C A764

Responder
   !S KT84
   !H Q93
   !D A4
   !C KQ32

Opener                Responder
2NT                                 3 !C   (puppet)
3 !H    (4 !S )                   3 !S   (agrees  !S  )
4 !C    (A !C or K !C  )       4 !D   (A !D or K !D   )
4  !H   (A !H or K !H  )       4NT (1430   )
5  !D   (3)                        5  !H   (Q  !S ?)
6  !D   (Q !S   +Q  !D )      6  !H (K !H?)
6 !S (no)                          pass

When opener bids 5 !D:
Responder knows that all 5 key cards are held.  However, opener does not know this as responder could have made the 4NT bid missing the A !D or the K !S. 

When responder bids 5 !H:
Opener bids 6 !D to show the Q !S and ostensibly the K !D.  However, responder is holding the K !D, so must ask himself what could opener be showing?  Answer: It can only be the Q !D  It is true that opener does not know that all keys are held, but does not need to know. 

When responder bids 6 !H
This asks opener to bid 7 !S if holding K !H otherwise 6 !S.  Opener now knows that all keys are held since responder would otherwise not be trying for the grand. 

I think this also answers Ken's question as to why it must be responder that does all the asking and does not transfer to telling at the 6 level.  It is only responder that knows that all keys are held. 

Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: Masse24 on October 24, 2020, 12:17:07 PM
I'm not seeing it.

First, the Puppet auction as shown is a bit off, though it's not relevant to this discussion. As shown, opener's 3 !H shows five hearts, not four spades. Something like this is more likely what you were going for:

2NT — 3 !C      We’ll assume 3 !C is Puppet Stayman here.
3 !D — 3 !H      3 !D = one or two four-card majors. 3 !H = four spades.
3 !S — 4 !C      3 !S agrees spades. 4 !C = control.
4 !D — 4NT      4 !D = control. 4NT = RKCB.
5 !D — 5 !H      5 !D = three keys. 5 !H = Got trump Q?
6 !D —             6 !D = Yes, I have the trump Q and . . . what?

So, for the sake of argument, let's assume the auction above.

Give our partners the following hands:

Opener
!S AQJ6
!H AJ9
!D AK
!C QT85

Responder
!S KT84
!H KQ9
!D JT
!C KJT9

The same (revised) auction above is entirely consistent with these hands. I could change a thing or two depending on agreements, but let's go with the above. In this auction--just like in any auction--6 !D shows the trump Q and the !D K. The 4NT bidder's Trump Queen ask is important to find out if slam is still viable missing one keycard.


As far as whether a six-level bid of a non-trump suit after either a Queen ask (and positive response) or a King ask response should be a showing bid or asking bid . . . my thinking is asking. It's the 4NT bidder who has a better idea (or should) of what's going on and whether a "missing King" would fill the gap for a grand. I suppose there might be some partnerships who choose to use it as a "Last Train" bid, rather than inquiring about a specific King, asking partner if he has anything extra for a grand. But I've never really thought about that.

So I agree with your assessment of the six-level bids. I think it to be "standard."  ;) 
Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: wackojack on October 25, 2020, 12:39:30 PM
Yes the penny has dropped with me now in the original hand that the 6 !D bid cannot show more than just the K !D, because at that stage he does not know that all keys are held (only the asker knows this) and so cannot skip over 6 !D with  !D Kxx.

Sorry to have made heavy weather of this


Title: Re: One No Trump and then?
Post by: kenberg on October 25, 2020, 02:02:16 PM
The evidence seems to be in that there are a variety of ways for an auction to go off track after opening NT bids. I think that applies doubly when the opening is 2NT rather than 1NT. For the moment I do not have a lot of great ideas or a lot of great references.