How would you bid this playing 2/1

[Curls77]

Hi all
Alan (Cedar) mailed me this question...

(...) assume NS play 2/1. 
North:
x x
A K Q x
A K J x x x
x
South, opener:
A Q J x x
x
x x
K Q J x x

and their bidding sequence (South bidding first) was
1S     2D
3C     3H
4C     5S
Pass

Questions:
1) Is south strong enough to bid 3C, does that bid shows extra values in opener's hand?
2) Should North bid 3D after 3C, allowing room for a 3H bid from South?
3) In the actual auction, could South bid 3N over the 3H bid, rather than go past 3N?
4) What do you think about 1S-2D ; 3C-3N?

I'll share link of this post with Alan, and I am sure here'll get very interesting answers.
Thanks!! 

[Curls77]

I moved topic again, hopefully someone will see and answer 

[jcreech]

Hi all
Alan (Cedar) mailed me this question...

(...) assume NS play 2/1. 
North:
x x
A K Q x
A K J x x x
x
South, opener:
A Q J x x
x
x x
K Q J x x

and their bidding sequence (South bidding first) was
1S     2D
3C     3H
4C     5S
Pass

Questions:
1) Is south strong enough to bid 3C, does that bid shows extra values in opener's hand?
2) Should North bid 3D after 3C, allowing room for a 3H bid from South?
3) In the actual auction, could South bid 3N over the 3H bid, rather than go past 3N?
4) What do you think about 1S-2D ; 3C-3N?

I'll share link of this post with Alan, and I am sure here'll get very interesting answers.
Thanks!! 

Questions:
1) Is south strong enough to bid 3C, does that bid shows extra values in opener's hand?  I think it is close.  It is a bit light in actual HCPs, but in re-evaluated points considering shape and honors working together (e.g., KnR = 16.5) it is a toss-up; so I would not object to my partner making the bid, and I would make the bid myself in many circumstances.  I would also keep in mind the state of the game/match when making a choice.
2) Should North bid 3D after 3C, allowing room for a 3H bid from South?  On this auction, I think I like the 3H bid better because it is suggestive of extra values.  However, it really depends on whether you want to emphasize the sixth diamond or heart strength.  I have no objection to either choice.
3) In the actual auction, could South bid 3N over the 3H bid, rather than go past 3N?  Yes.  The 3H bid should show a concentration of values, which clears up the fourth suit for NT.
4) What do you think about 1S-2D ; 3C-3N?  On the auction, I would regard it as a bit of a mastermind.  You are looking at a 4-6 with 17 HCPs that initially re-evaluated to be much more (KnR = 21.9).  The auction both sounds more and less promising - more because partner suggests extra strength too, but less because it sounds like a misfit.  Looking at my own distribution and misfit, I can easily see partner having extra values due to distribution, so how much should I discount on that basis is still up in the air.  3NT eliminates any chance to clarify whether game is the limit or should we be in slam; that is a question I might want to explore with the North hand even if South had not suggested extras.

Personally, I would open 1C with the intent to rebid the spades twice.  This is a treatment that Brian Platnick insisted upon the one time we played together.  Now it will become easier to stop in 3NT, and not get overextended.

[kenberg]

The auction will start 1 - 2 , no doubt about that. Now for the S rebid. If I had been dealt

A Q J x x
x
x x
K J x x x

I would have opened the bidding.
Well, KQJxx is a lot better than KJxxx.
It's not just 2 more highs, it is 2 well placed highs.
So 1 - 2 - 3 seens right

Now to the N hand . Despite all the highs, the hands are not fitting well. If we are thinking of slam, where? Partner has a lot of black cards. If partner has the Q things are looking up but why should he have that? And, looking for the moment at both hands even of we change xx in the S hand to Qx , slam is hardly a certainty on a spade lead.

I am inclined, as N, to bid 3 over 3 . If S now raises that will make me happy. If he bids 3 I might well settle for 3NT.  Partner does not have to pass 3NT but with the hand he has, I imagine he will. Ne has already announced a lot of black cards, I have announced some good diamonds, but nobody has said "I can see where 12 tricks are likely to come from".

It is not impossible for 6 to make, but it needs a lot.

N has a lot in the reds, S in the blacks, who is going to set up what suit? Our only 8 card fit is in , we need the Q. Time to get out. Let's just get 9 tricks through brute force.

[wackojack]

North:
x x
A K Q x
A K J x x x
x
South, opener:
A Q J x x
x
x x
K Q J x x

I am more in Ken's camp than Jim's on the best bidding.  So I will answer the questions as given:

1) Is south strong enough to bid 3C, does that bid shows extra values in opener's hand?

With this 5-5 distribution you do not need any extra strength to make the high reverse into 3 .  This is the advice given in the book "2 over 1 Game Force by Audrey Grant and Eric Rodwell" 
So yes rebid 3 .  This could also be showing a 4 card    suit with extra strength.

2) Should North bid 3D after 3C, allowing room for a 3H bid from South?


1 - 2
3 -?
Responder has a very strong hand and should look at slam possibilities.  3 I believe is the best bid as it is the most economical and shows a 6 card suit.  So yes bid 3 .

3) In the actual auction, could South bid 3N over the 3H bid, rather than go past 3N?

If the bidding went:
1      2
3      3
?
The 4th suit bid of 3 says "Please tell me more about your hand partner?"  So opener would bid 4 to show a definite 5-5 and no stop in hearts.  Clearly this illustrates that the 4th suit bid of 3 was unsatisfactory.

4) What do you think about 1S-2D ; 3C-3N?

Responder has 17HCP.  The strong 6 card  suit  makes it worth at least 19.  So it is too strong to bid 3NT which would be showing a maximum of 15.

Ss best sequence I believe would be:

1     2
3     3
3      ?

Not an easy decision.  Responder despite the very powerful hand can see the partial misfit and cannot assume that a slam will be on.  Nevertheless, opener could have something like:
  AKxxx
  x
  Qx
  KQJxx

Where 6N or 6 is a virtual laydown and is entirely consistent with the earlier bidding.  If responder bids 3N would opener make a slam move?   I am not sure.
 Opener would know that responder has something extra because he bid 3 before bidding 3NT on the principle of "slow arrival" .  So maybe opener would now take out 3NT into 4 showing slam interest in s. 

So back to the decision on the actual hands:
1     2
3     3
3      ?

What should 4NT by responder now mean?  Keycard in  s or quantitative in no trumps?  You could argue that it must be quantitaive in no trumps since responder could fix the suit as  s by bidding 4  .  So with this fig leaf I say bid 4NT.  There is still a safely run-out, because if partner takes it as  keycard, he will bid 5 showing 1 and now you sign off in 5 .


Quoting JIM who says:  "Personally, I would open 1C with the intent to rebid the spades twice.  This is a treatment that Brian Platnick insisted upon the one time we played together.  Now it will become easier to stop in 3NT, and not get overextended."
If you play it this way then you have difficuly showing hands with 6 clubs and 5 spades. 



 

[jcreech]

I am more in Ken's camp than Jim's on the best bidding.

With regard to the auction as presented, and the questions asked, I don't see myself as being far different in thinking than Ken and Jack.  I do equivocate more than they do.  Where we differ the most is with an unasked question:  Should South open 1C or 1S?  And the answer to that question is that they are closer to Steve Robinson's position that if you do not open a major, you do not have a five-card major than I am.  However, holding a 5-?-?-6, I think they both would open 1C over 1S unless the club suit was dearth of values (e.g., AKxxx A A 10xxxxx), then they are probably back to bidding 1S.

Quoting JIM who says:  "Personally, I would open 1C with the intent to rebid the spades twice.  This is a treatment that Brian Platnick insisted upon the one time we played together.  Now it will become easier to stop in 3NT, and not get overextended."
If you play it this way then you have difficuly showing hands with 6 clubs and 5 spades.

Now with the actual hands, starting the auction with 1C, my bidding would be as follows:

1C - 1D
1S - 2H
2S - 3D
3H - 3NT

On this auction, 2H is simply 4th suit forcing.  Neither side had shown any extras, so it was more important to show the game force than to show the sixth diamond.  2S established at least 5-5 in the blacks, so 3D is denying a black suit fit and shows either a sixth diamond or a heart problem for NT.  3H denies at least a stand-alone stop in hearts.  3NT clarifies the 3D by saying NT could have been bid the round before, so six is guaranteed, but there is also a good stop in hearts.  I have North bailing due to the misfit, but a more aggressive North could have bid 4H to show real hearts and trying for slam.  If that had happened, I would have South bid 4NT (natural) or 5D to get out on the misfit; of the two, I think of NT as being safer, but harder for South to choose with a stiff. 

With a sixth club, the auction might have started

1C - 1D
1S - 2H
3C - 3D
3S

Where 3C does not necessarily show six, however, 3S not only shows the fifth spade but a sixth club, otherwise why not just bid 2S on the previous round, which does show the 5-5.

Gee, maybe it is not so difficult to show six clubs and 5 spades after all.

[kenberg]

I recall advice, I am pretty sure it was from Kantar, that with 5-5 in the blacks you should open 1 if minimal or if strong and open 1 if in between. Maybe so. The problem is that on many hands, not this one, the opponents will be barging in when you open 1 with a weak 5-5.

I do sometimes open 1 when 5-5 in the blacks. It's not one of those things where I have any agreements with partners, I do it when I think it might work out, and I can imagine doing it here. I didn't venture into this possibility here, some would open 1 , some would open 1 , but that choice is a broad issue going beyond this hand. Here the opponents have the K, the J, the Q and the A so while maybe they come in over 1 , probably they don't. Just looking at the S hand, the expectation would be that often they will.
I am trying to say that whether to open 1 is a whole different issue from how the auction should go after a 1 opening.

I think we are all pretty much on the same page.   N has a good hand but the hands don't fit well so how does he keep slam options open without going overboard? The answer is "I don't really know" and I suspect others would say the same. Some things are a matter of style (or lack of style maybe). After 1 - 2 - 3 - 3 I think, with the S hand, I would bid 3 . I would intend this as "Hey buddy, I can probably play this in 4 if you have Kx." But others might bid 4 over 3 . "Hey buddy, you want to play in diamonds, ok, we play in diamonds". And others would bid 3 over 3 . "Hey buddy, I have no idea where we should play this, what do you think".

[jcreech]

Note to Curls77: 

I have also posted the hand to BridgeWinners.com.  The url is https://bridgewinners.com/article/view/21-hand-what-are-your-thoughts-about-the-auction-2nd-attempt-at-multi-answer/.  If you pass the link to Cedar, he can view the poll and comments there as well.  He may have to join to view the poll results, but joining is free.


This is the link to the corrected poll.

[kenberg]

Note to Curls77: 

I have also posted the hand to BridgeWinners.com.  The url is https://bridgewinners.com/article/view/21-hand-what-are-your-thoughts-about-the-auction/.  If you pass the link to Cedar, he can view the poll and comments there as well.  He may have to join to view the poll results, but joining is free.

The poll might need fixing. I checked yes to Q1 and then when I checked yes to 2A the mark on 1A goes away. So it doesn't accept "one answer within each question number" it just accepts one answer overall.

Also questions 1 and 4, as stated, are not really suited for a poll. Eg Q1 is really 2 questions. If someone thinks S should bid 3 but does not think that it shows extras, should he answer yes or no? And Q4 is "What do you think..." I suppose he can answer no if he does not like the auction presented, but which part doesn't he like?

[jcreech]

It does - but I have to wait 1.5 hours before I can repost with a new one.  I needed to start with a multi-answer poll, but I cannot go back and fix the one already done.  The new one is ready to go as soon as the timer clicks down to zero.

Corrected link:  https://bridgewinners.com/article/view/21-hand-what-are-your-thoughts-about-the-auction-2nd-attempt-at-multi-answer/

[wackojack]

The disadvantage of opening 1 with 5 +5 with a min or near min opener is that the spade suit can easily get lost.  Off the top of my head I composed these 4 hands:
                      !0xx
                      Axx
                      Qxxxx
                      xx
  xx                                Kxx
  KQJ10xx                        xxx
  Jx                                AK10x
  xxx                              Axx     
                    AQJxx
                    x
                    xx     
                    KQJxx

You open 1  and LHO overcalls a weak 2 .  Partner does not have a bid and so passes.  RHO raises to 3 .  It is very dangerous now to compete with 3 .  However if you pass you have missed a game in 4 .  Whereas if you open 1 you are likely to get a smooth ride to 4 .   

[Masse24]

Questions:
1) Is south strong enough to bid 3C, does that bid shows extra values in opener's hand?
    Strong enough for 3 ? It depends on what agreements you have with your partner. I used to insist that a high-reverse showed extra values . . . ala Mike Lawrence. Not full-reverse values, just extras. Roughly a King better than minimum. No more. I’ve since moved to the shape-showing Bergen style.

2) Should North bid 3D after 3C, allowing room for a 3H bid from South?
      Should North bid 3 ? Yes. Opener has denied hearts, so what exactly does 3 accomplish?

3) In the actual auction, could South bid 3N over the 3H bid, rather than go past 3N?
       No. In the actual auction, 3 should generally show a problem with hearts in 3NT. South has a stiff heart spot, hardly something to bid 3NT with.

4) What do you think about 1S-2D ; 3C-3N?
       An underbid. I think responder has two possible rebids over 3 . Either 3 (which I slightly prefer) or a quantitative 4NT (expressing my values).

[Curls77]

Note to Curls77: 

I have also posted the hand to BridgeWinners.com.  The url is https://bridgewinners.com/article/view/21-hand-what-are-your-thoughts-about-the-auction-2nd-attempt-at-multi-answer/.  If you pass the link to Cedar, he can view the poll and comments there as well.  He may have to join to view the poll results, but joining is free.


This is the link to the corrected poll.

WOW, thanks Jim!! 

And thanks all for your opinions, greatly appreciated!

[kenberg]

And a quick question about the original bidding, what was the thinking with the 5 call?
I gather it was natural, pard passed the 5 , but I don't see the purpose.

If the answer to this is not known, that's fine, I am just curious.

[jcreech]

I think, given the misfit auction, I would take 5S as asking "If I were to provide two small spades, how confident are you that your suits would only have one loser