More Donna

[kenberg]

Donna's hand are for discussion of agreements. That's a good idea in general that also could be useful as we have another match with the acols.
So here is one of her Thursday hands:


  AQT
  KQT76
  976
  T9


Vulnerability and scoring unknown, So if it affects your choices say so.

Lho deals, three passes to you, your choice? I gave this to the robots and they passed it out.I think it is close. There is something called the rule of 15 for 4th hand openings. It requires that if the number of hcps plus the number of spades is less than 15 you pass it out. Ok, I have 11 highs and 3 spades but this hand is better than that.
I opened 1 , pard bids 1 .

Pass Pass Pass 1
Pass 1   Pass  ?

I passed.
 
  AQT
  KQT76
  976
  T9
 



  KT864
  953
  8
  AQJ5

Do we want to play this in 4 and if so, 4 or 4 ? And what are the choices?

Drury was available and pard mentioned he might have bid 2 instead of 1 . Or I might have raised 1 to 2 . Otoh, pard could reasonably think "I will bid 1 . If pard passes that because he opened light then we probably don't belong in game. If pard bids again I can then show my hearts and give him a good picture of a hand with spades, with heart support, and with good values."

As mentioned the bots passed it out. Your thoughts?

[blubayou]

I believe this was me, with you, Ken.   Your chat above nailed our thinking great--well done.   But this layout raises a gripe i have had with both Shawn and Palych  and maybe 1-2 other regulars:   
   A passed-hand jump-shift ought to be in THIS  point range, when the opponents have all passed so many turns.  Sure--  we still may be 19 pts facing 3 pts, and the opps rightfully keeping quiet,  but the Donna-hand type has been giving me misery every week or two since covid started.  I say  Charlie Goren got this right 70 years ago:   'pass...1X....2Y'  is the oRigiNAL  "fit-jump"!  Did somebody mention that we will still stop short on this example if Drury is used? .  They should

[jcreech]

Ken,

You are right it is close.  I would pass the hand out most days, but if I needed a result, I would bid - state of the match/game.

If I were to open, and partner responded 1 or 1 NT, I would pass (as you did over 1 ).

If partner responded 2 , then I would say I did not have a full opener (in most instances, 2 ).

Looking at the actual hands, I would want to be in a major suit game most of the time, but I cannot think of any way that I would bid the game without someone seriously overbidding or otherwise fooling around in the auction.  If our side contracts in either major, I will be happy.  If our side passes the hand out, I will assume it was the normal contract but mentally note that it might be a loss of a few IMPs or a couple of matchpoints and shrug it off as bridge.

[kenberg]

Yes, that's pretty much my view. Suppose we play in hearts. We have a stiff diamond in the hand with the three hearts and our points are all useful, for example, no Qxx opposite the stiff .  The hands fit very nicely.  And still it's not exactly a cold 4 . Or a cold 4 . In 4 the opponents can start with two top diamonds shortening your trump and then I think you had better hope that spades are 3-2 and the K is onside. You then get 5 spade tricks and four clubs, and you have the control needed to establish a heart.

[blubayou]

WOW!   I just repaired my keyboard glitch  and completed my post , upthread,  then moved on the the next Kenberg thread.....only to find that BWS PLAYS [!!]  passed-hand jump-shifts as fit-jumps.  wow, again.
   So  the dilemma posited in the  "More Donna"  thread is as solved as anyone can wish for..in BWS bidding at least

[jcreech]

So Jock, what are your agreements on fit-showing JS? 

It works nicely on this hand, but typically my partners expect nine cards in the two suits.  And even when I have the required nine or more, they sometimes get perturbed when I only have four in my JS suit, and five or more in their suit; so those partners will not be happy with only eight.  It may be worth the time to discuss the costs vs. benefits of being pure, or even when it is appropriate to be a bit impure. 

[kenberg]

As mentioned, Donna's hands can be useful.

Now: If you had bid 2 , undiscussed, would I have taken it as fit showing? Well, maybe. Sort of a what the hell else situation. You could have opened 2 if you had six spades and, say, two hearts. And if you had only five spades why on Earth would you want to bid 2 unless you also had a heart fit to fall back on? So spades and a heart fit makes sense.

So maybe I could work it out.
Don't bet the house on it.

Should it require that you have four hearts to go with your five spades? Oh, I don't know. It should be a hand where 3 is a reasonable contract when I don't fit spades.

It's something of a magic hand. Probably it makes 4 more often than not, but maybe not with a lot of room to spare.

[blubayou]

charlie goren presented it as a device simply to not get DROPPED  in our passed-hand one-over-one,  although  naturally  some of his examples featured super-fit 25 HCP slams.  In those days,  "The Law"  was not trumpeted across the kingdom, as now, although  no doubt the sharks knew of it  "by osmosis" before we were borne.  THIS particular variant of fit-jump  seems to me to  not be about some total-trick rules, since there doesn't seem to be a lot of comp bidding, but mainly about avoiding an ignominious  1!S + four  traveler entry