NMF - opener's 1st obligation?

[veredk]

There are different suggestions for opener's 1st rebid; support responder's major with 3 or bid your own 4 card other major. What are the advantages of one over the other?
Thanks, Vered

[jcreech]

Although, technically, it should be better to reach the 4-4 fit rather than the 5-3 fit, I tend to show my three-card support for partner first. 

I show the support because it is more likely that partner has already shown a five-card suit than is showing a second four-card suit. 

It also gives partner information about my hand; if I do not show support for partner's suit, I deny three cards in that suit, which allows partner to evaluate their own holding more appropriately.

[kenberg]

There are different suggestions for opener's 1st rebid; support responder's major with 3 or bid your own 4 card other major. What are the advantages of one over the other?
Thanks, Vered

Edited, my first response was careless.

Steve Robinson advocates that after minor-1 - 1NT-newminor-? that if opener holds four hearts and three spades he should rebid 2 . The idea is that it gives more room to sort out strength.

For example: 1 - 1 - 1NT - 2 - 2 -2 is minimal. Respomder bid 2 , nmf, so he has at least invit values.  Now opener bids 2 , showing four heartss, but not denying three spades. With a minimal invit hand, responder can now bid 2 . This doesn't show six, it just shows minimal values.Opener can now decide what to do. He might, on some hands, even decide to leave it in a 5-2 fit. The point is that the auction is at 2 , opener knows responder has five spades, does not have four hearts, and has a minimal hand. He can do as he thinks best.

[wackojack]

I am not sure we are talking about the same things. 

Vered asks about opener's rebid and by that I assume she means 1st rebid.  If this be so then the question must be:
1m-1 - ? when I have 3 card support for hearts and a 4 card spade suit. 

The answer is abolutely clear here and it is NEVER support hearts on the 1st round with 3 hearts and 4 spades.

 What you do bid when you have 3 hearts and 4 spades is however, contentious. 
One school of thinking says:
My first duty is to tell partner if I have a balanced or unbalance hand.  In this case if I have a balanced 12-14 with 3 hearts and 4 spades  I rebid 1NT.   
The other school of thinking says bid up-the-line so I don't miss a 4-4 spade fit in which case the bidding goes 1m-1 -1 .

There are arguments for and against both.  We can go into those arguments if that is what you are asking Vered

[jcreech]

Jack,

You are right - there is a disconnect between Vered's subject line - which Ken and I focused on - and the question as asked by Vered.

Working with the actual question, my answer is it depends on the hand.  Nonetheless, the hand she describes has three of partner's major and four of the other.  When partner has responded in hearts, I will always rebid spades.  When partner has responded spades, if I have a balanced hand, I will always rebid 1NT, but if I have an unbalanced hand, then I will raise with three wishing that I had a fourth, while feeling a bit stuck otherwise.

[veredk]

Sorry, I need to clarify. I meant opener 2nd rebid. 1 minor - 1Major -1NT -2 other minor - ? opener holding 3 of partner's major and 4 of the other major. There are different agreements on what opener should respond, bid the other 4 card major or support partner's bid major.
I was hoping for a discussion whether there is advantage of one way over the other.

[kenberg]

I took "rebid"  to mean after the nmf.
I confess I did not think about it all that much.
I gather that was the intended meaning.
 
There is some interplay between this and the issue of 1m-1 -? when opener holds four spades.

If partner bids 1NT over 1 while holding four spades we will never,  hardly ever, be finding that spade fit, if there is one. Say I'm responded, holding 4=4=3=2.  Partner opens 1m, I respond 1 , partner bids 1NT.   Often I lack the strength to bid at the 2 level so we are playing 1NT. If partner skipped over his four card spade suit, well, we miss the spade fit. And, if I have an 11 count with four spades then after 1m-1 -1NT I invite by bidding 2NT after 1 - 1 - 1NT. 

I suppose that with 4=4=3=2 we could play that 2 of the other minor over 1m-1 - 1NT is checking back for a spade fit. I don't think of it as a standard part of nmf, and I would need at least invit values to use it.

Anyway, I am taking the topic to be: If the auction begins 1m-1 -1NT -nmf, then what happens next if opener holds four hearts and three spades.

The view I was presenting is that if opener, after 1m-1 - 1NT nmf,  first shows hearts when holding both four hearts and three spades. Then, if responder has four hearts he shouts whoopee and we play in hearts. If responder, as most often happens, has five spades but does not have four hearts, then, after the 2 response to the nmf call, he can rebid a passable 2 with a minimum, or bid 2NT, or 3NT with five spades and a non-minimum.

I imagine nmf can be adapted to partnerships for which opener regularly bids 1NT over responder's 1 , even when holding four spades. There is no way around the fact that if responder is 4-4 in the majors and has an 8 count, he will pass after 1m-1 - 1NT.

[wackojack]

I think you will find a 4-4 spade fit if there is one even when you rebid 1NT with 4 , 3 , 4 , D2 provided partner has 11+HCP using nmf.
 1    1
1NT     2
2      2
3      
Now you support your partner's 4 card  suit.

It is more obvious if you play 2 way check back which is incorporated into BBO Adv. After 1x-1y-1N
then 2 = 5+ 4 weak .  So you can sign off in 2 .
OR with an invite hand partner can next show his 4 card spade suit

1    1
1NT    2 (relay)
2     2 
3

If responder has a game forcing hand opener bids 2 after 1N So:
1    1
1NT    2 * Artificial game force
2 **  2
3      4

** opener shows delayed 3 card  support.  And now responder shows 4

Of course if you open 1NT (15-17) with a 4 card major and partner has 5-6 or even 7 high card points with a 4 cards in the same major you cannot find that 4-4 fit. 

[kenberg]

With discussion, I agree.

Take your auction:

1    1
1NT     2
2      2
3      

After the 2 bid we bid 2 . We had better hope that partner takes it as showing a four card spades suit. What else? Well, if the 1 - 1 - 1NT denied four spades, and some would say that it does, then after
1    1
1NT     2
2  
presumably a 2 bid would show values in spades to help partner decide whether he should sign off in 3 , putting us in what he thinks will be a 5-3 fir, or should he bid 4 4 and play in his 5-3 fit. Sure, we don't have a 5-3 fit, and if we have discussed it with partner he may well conclude that.

And yes, 2 way would be better here.

I was watching a hand today where the auction went 1m-1 - 2NT- Pass missing the 4-4 spade fit. Yes I also often skip over the four card spade holding to show my balanced points, but it can go wrong. It did.

When I open 1m and partner bids 1 , I might well skip over my four card spade suit when I am four triple three. I figure I will often cope even if pard has four spades. But in other cases I am inclined to bid my spades. I don't have hard and fast rules, but I accept that after 1m - 1 !h - 1NT the most likely next call by partner is pass. So I ask myself if I am ok with that.  When he holds modest values then, if I bid my spades, we will play in spades if he has four and he can play it in NT while I make coffee if he does not have four.

As with many things in bridge I don't see it as clearcut. Just my approach.

[wackojack]

Just as a matter of interest.  Acol plays 12-14 1NT.  This means that you never find a 4-4 major suit fit if partner has fewer than 11.  OTOH Acol should almost guarantee finding a 4-4 major suit fit with a balanced 15-19. Since a weak no trump has twice the frequency of a strong no trump you are about 4 times less likley to lose a 4-4 major suit fit if you play strong no trump.

It has been said that if you play the weak no trump it destroys your 4-4M fit finding.  And by the same token it also destroys the opps  4-4M fit finding 

In my book(playing 15-17 1NT) I very nearly  always  rebid 1NT with a balanced 12-14 with 4 spades and not 4 hearts.  So if the bidding goes 1 -1 -1 I am guaranteeing an unbalanced hand.  I consider it my first duty to tell my partner that I have or dont have a balanced hand.  If partner has fewer than 11 we could miss a 4-4 spade fit if opps pass.  What happens in practice is that the opps intervene and we find our 4-4 spade fit OR LHO conveniently leads a spade against 1NT.  Usually a win-win situation.

[Masse24]

There is a third school of thought that espouses bidding up the line, a combination of the two.

Jim’s comment that “technically, it should be better to reach the 4-4 fit rather than the 5-3 fit,” dovetails nicely with Ken’s summary of Steve Robinson’s “after minor-1 - 1NT-newminor-? that if opener holds four hearts and three spades he should rebid 2 . The idea is that it gives more room to sort out strength.”

My preference is to show the other major. Even undiscussed, if I did so as opener in response to partner’s NMF, I would assume that he would know what I was up to.

Equally as important, and often undiscussed, is whether to jump as opener when at the top of your 1NT range. If you do jump to show “top-of-range,” it changes the meaning of responder’s subsequent rebids. For example:
1 – 1
1NT – 2
2                    *(where 2 shows three-card support and bottom of range.)

If opener jumps to 3 with a top-of-range 14, then the 2 above shows a minimum—12 to bad 13. Which makes this auction:

1 – 1
1NT – 2
2 – 3

not an invite, but a slam move in spades. Think about it. Opener has already said that he is minimum. Does a 3 “invite” basically asking “are your sure?” make any sense?

[wackojack]

OH! and I play Walsh response so with leass than a game force  and 4 or 5 diamonds and a 4 card major I will skip over the  suit and respond 1M.  If partner rebids 1N and I am weak I re-respond 2 which is a relay to 2 which I pass. So playing 2-way check back you can conveniently skip over a longer  suit in order to find a possible 4-4M fit and if that isnt the case then you relay to play in 2 .

[wackojack]

"1 – 1
1NT – 2
2 – 3

not an invite, but a slam move in spades."

Perhaps so.  However, even better playing 2 way cb as it would go:

1   -  1
1NT   -  2 (art GF)
2   -3   (unequivically a slam try since 4 would be to play.

[Masse24]

"1 – 1
1NT – 2
2 – 3

not an invite, but a slam move in spades."

Perhaps so.  However, even better playing 2 way cb as it would go:

1   -  1
1NT   -  2 (art GF)
2   -3   (unequivocally a slam try since 4 would be to play.

Yes, I play two-way. I was trying to limit the scope of my response.

Additionally, I was mentioning a part of plain-old NMF that even those who play it may not have considered.

[Masse24]

It is more obvious if you play 2 way check back which is incorporated into BBO Adv. After 1x-1y-1N
then 2 = 5+ 4 weak .  So you can sign off in 2 .
OR with an invite hand partner can next show his 4 card spade suit

1    1
1NT    2 (relay)
2     2 
3

One advantage of two-way is that you can stop at the two-level, while other pairs are "inviting" at the three level. So in the auction above, if opener has four spades and a minimum 1NT rebid . . . passing 2 is usually best.

Also, there are two ways to invite.

1    1
1NT    2 (relay)
2     2 
Which shows five hearts and four spades. And . . .

1    1
1NT    2
Which shows four hearts and four spades.