Author Topic: You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to The support X  (Read 5023 times)

kenberg

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You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to The support X
« on: August 03, 2017, 05:06:22 PM »
Watching a recent match I was once again struck by how often misunderstandings occur.

If I don't tire out, I may address a few conventions and how they sometimes lead to confusion.  The  plan is to cite some online resources and note where things might go wrong.

Larry Cohen on support X. See https://www.larryco.com/bridge-learning-center/detail/29

He has five bullet points, two of which strongly show the need for discussion.

The first is how high? He says that some play through 2 !S, others lay it higher. I like 2 !S, or more precisely I like then on providing fourth hand interference is not beyond 2 of partner's suit. So if partner responds 1 !H to my opening 1m, and rho bids 2 !S, I think  it might be better to play that support doubles are off. My idea is that partner will not always have a five card !H suit and then, if I double 2 !S to show my three card heart suit, what is he to do? It's different from 1m-1 !S and now having RHO come in at the 2 level. I double to show 3 card support. If worse comes to worse, partner might land in a 4-3 fit but it is at the 2 level. He might make it, or the opponents might go on.

LC also speaks of whether it is on/off if responder bids 1 !D over my 1 !C opening. He recommends yes. But of course the real recommendation is that there is agreement. I often play that if it begins 1 !C - (P) -1 !D - (1 !H ) then support doubles are on while if t begins 1 !C - (P) -1 !D - (1 !S ) then support doubles are off. The logic is that after the 1 !H overcall I can bid 1 !S if I have them so I can use the X as a support X. However if I have four hearts and the overcall is 1 !S then I need a way to show those hearts. Surely bidding 2 !H is strong and shapely, and I might have my more usual hand of nothing much. Possibly Walsh players have less of a need for this way to show a four card heart suit, so they might want to play support doubles on regardless of which major is overcalled.   Here is why it is useful to have them on. The response of 1 !D to 1 !c is often, not always but often, on a five card suit.With only four diamonds responder will often, not always but often, be able to bis either a major or 1NT. And opener, when he open 1 !C, will usually not have four !D. He might, but more often he doesn't. So, often we will have a 5-3 fit and we want to find it. We can then, often, compete to the 3 level.  On those occasions where opener has four diamonds he will often have five clubs. With this sort of shape the auction is apt to get competitive and the sooner we clarify matters the better.


Let's leave LC and move on to the BridgeGuys
http://www.bridgeguys.com/doubles/SupportDouble.html

After example 1 they say:
In order to indicate a minimum raise which shows only a 3-card support, the opening bidder, South, applies the Support Double. By bidding 2, North shows a 5-card Heart suit.

 Well, sort of.  As far as I know, the support X can be used with non-minimum hands. Maybe they mean "possible minimum". Also, although respponder probably has five hearts for his 2 !H rebid, he had to bid something. Yes he most likely has five, maybe I should say it is strongly likely, but we should give him a little room here. Or at least we should discuss just what he is to do if he has, say, four small spades, four hearts, and a 6 count.  Passing out 1 !S X does not seem like a good idea.

Moving down to their example 2. This is a great example, taken from real play.

It begins 1 !d - (P) - 1 !S - 1NT
Ok, support doubles are on or off? Are you sure your partner plays the same way? Does it matter whether the 1NT call is natural or a sandwich?  My though is that over a sandwich we often have a fit and we want to find out right away how big a fit it is. So support X shoould be on.  If the NT was strong, as it was here, I am not so sure.  I think I could argue it either way.


One more source, the wikipedia.  Author unknown
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Support_double

Here is one example that they give:

(P) -  1 !C - (1 !H  )- 1 - !S
(2 !H ) -X

Support X? The wik article says:

"Playing negative doubles or not, opener's double shows three spades. It is irrelevant that opener knows that partner has five spades (if playing negative doubles), the double shows three-card support. The principle is that you and your partner use the opponent's bidding to assist your bidding. Clarify right now if you have three- or four-card support unless you have something else very important to say."

OK, summary time: This presents some things that a partnership could discuss.   There is a great deal of overlap in the use of negative doubles, but around the edges some do it one way, some do it another way. I am absolutely not saying which is right, in fact I would insist that I don't know the answer to that. But what is clearly wrong is for one partner to be playing them one way and the other partner to be playing then in a different way.  And the thought that "Oh, it's ok, everyone plays it the same way" is contradicted by experience.

Feel free to give your thoughts. I keep hoping for a larger discussion pool.













Ken

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Re: You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to The support X
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2017, 08:41:07 PM »
OCP uses Support Doubles, but the occasions when they apply are more limited: For example after a sequence such as 1 !D - 1 !S - (2 !H) - X is a Support Double, but obviously after a 1 !C Opener and a positive response, it wouldn't be: eg: 1 !C - 1 !H - (2 !D) - X it's not a support double, but a trump Asking Bid in Clubs.
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kenberg

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Re: You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to The support X
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2017, 11:53:12 AM »
I can see why the X of 2 !D would be more useful as a !C bid than as a three card !H raise. If opener has five clubs and so far has shown none of them he needs to have a way to get started on them. On other occasions you will have a heart fit but not a club fit.  I am guessing this can be uncovered in the old fashioned way: The 1 !H is on 4+ and if opener has 3+  he can raise hearts after the 2 !D interference, with it to be sorted out later whether there is a 7 card fit or an 8+ card fit?
Ken

kenberg

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Re: You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to The support X
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2017, 12:03:02 PM »
Here is a contested auction

1 !C - (1 !S )- 2 !H - (2 !S )
X

What should the X be? Contrast this with

1 !C - (P )- 1 !H - (2 !S )
X

In this latter case I think there is a lot to be said for the X not being a routine support X.  A double forces the auction to the 3 level, there is no assurance of a fit, and no assurance of the values needed to play at the 3 level. Exactly what X should be in this case is an interesting question. It crosses my mind that it could be a "strong support X" meaning a good three card holding and some extra shape. In this way, the 4-3 fit might well play ok.


But in the first auction responder is known to have both five hearts and some values, but we might still benefit from having a raise to 3 !H show four cards, and a double showing three card support.

When I observed the first auction, one person thought the X was support, the other didn't.

I am hoping others will say what their understanding is of when support doubles are on and when they are off. Experience shows that not everyone sees this the same. It would be interesting, or at least I think it would be interesting, to see how much agreement there is and how much agreement there isn't.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2017, 12:08:16 PM by kenberg »
Ken

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Re: You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to The support X
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2017, 12:24:15 PM »
I can see why the X of 2 !D would be more useful as a !C bid than as a three card !H raise. If opener has five clubs and so far has shown none of them he needs to have a way to get started on them. On other occasions you will have a heart fit but not a club fit.  I am guessing this can be uncovered in the old fashioned way: The 1 !H is on 4+ and if opener has 3+  he can raise hearts after the 2 !D interference, with it to be sorted out later whether there is a 7 card fit or an 8+ card fit?


Not quite. The 1 !H bid will always be a 5+-card suit. 2 !H is Asking in Hearts. Pass over 2 !D would be asking in Spades, and 2NT would be "handing over the Captaincy" and reverting to natural bidding, so Responder could show a 2nd suit or rebid a 6+-card Heart suit as appropriate.
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OliverC

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Re: You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to The support X
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2017, 12:29:54 PM »
Here is a contested auction

1 !C - (1 !S )- 2 !H - (2 !S )
X

What should the X be? Contrast this with

1 !C - (P )- 1 !H - (2 !S )
X

In this latter case I think there is a lot to be said for the X not being a routine support X.  A double forces the auction to the 3 level, there is no assurance of a fit, and no assurance of the values needed to play at the 3 level. Exactly what X should be in this case is an interesting question. It crosses my mind that it could be a "strong support X" meaning a good three card holding and some extra shape. In this way, the 4-3 fit might well play ok.


In the first of those (not playing OCP) I would probably play the double as showing decent values, but probably only 2-card support for Hearts (Responder having promised 5+). Some people might play this as a competitive double (ie: invitational in Hearts as opposed to 3 !H, which would be merely competitive). It's not a classic sotuation for that, but people's styles differ.


In the 2nd example, this is a straight support double with 3-card Hearts (We play support doubles to the level of 2 !S)
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kenberg

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Re: You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to The support X
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2017, 02:09:22 PM »
Continuing with the 2nd example, suppose you opened your minor on a 12 count with three hearts. Would you still make the negative  [oops I meant support] X when your RHO comes in with 2 !S over your partner's 1 !H ?  I would be inclined toward caution here. If partner re-opens I can show heart support. He will have extra to re-open and now it is a little safer.

Most people do indeed play support doubles through 2 !S .  I have never seen a discussion of  how to handle this pre-emptive 2 !S over the 1 !H . My thought is that I would hold off unless I had something extra, a good three cards, or good shape, or both, but maybe that's too cautious.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 12:44:29 AM by kenberg »
Ken

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Re: You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to The support X
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2017, 03:48:44 PM »
Support Doubles are not the same as Negative Doubles.


1 !D - 1 !H - (2 !S) - X is a Support Double showing 3-card Heart support (and probably decent values as well)


1 !D - (2 !S) - X is a Negative (essentially t/o) Double showing 4-card Hearts.


Negative Doubles are pretty much always made by Responder, whereas Support Doubles are always made by Opener in relation to Responder's suit.


Both of these types of Double are essentially for t/o, showing a desire to compete further, but they shouldn't be confused.
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kenberg

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Re: You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to The support X
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2017, 12:42:56 AM »
Oops. A typo

I was speaking of
1m - (P) - 1 !H - (2 !S )
Here we are looking at support doubles.


I mistakenly said "negative double"
I will correct.

I was talking of this with my partner today.  We agreed that
1m - (P) - 1 !H - (2 !S )
X

would still be a support double, but it would show something extra as ell. We did not go into detail about just how much extra.  Personally, I think it should be something where if responder has a decent four card suit them it would not be crazy to play in hearts at some level. And if he has a five card suit he will be delighted with the call. If he has a crummy four card heart suit then hopefully he has some other reasonable call.

Ken

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Re: You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to The support X
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2017, 05:02:06 PM »
:)
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