IAC Forums

Chew the Fat! => The IAC Café => Topic started by: Curls77 on July 04, 2022, 01:52:10 PM

Title: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: Curls77 on July 04, 2022, 01:52:10 PM: Are we ready for the next battle?? ;)
ACOL usually has 3 teams in earlier session and 5 in the later one, lets match that if possible, it's more fun for everyone!

This month we'll hold the event on Sunday, August 7th, 2022.
Deadline for registration is Wed, August 3rd @ 2359 utc, after which we can not accept new registrations.
We'll have 2 starting times:
* 1100utc, 7am NY, noon London, 16:30 New Delhi, 11pm Auckland
* 1900 utc, 3pm NY, 8pm London, 7am Auckland
All boards are random, but previously saved in sets of 10 hands, so that all those starting at 1100utc will play the same boards, and all those starting at 1900 utc will also play the same boards, but different from those at noon.
Each match is of 20 boards, played in two stanzas of 10, changing opponents at half-time. Scoring is by IMPs.

How to register:
Please form your teams and choose a captain, who should mail IAC.at.BBO@gmail.com (and please CC me: sanja@sapo.pt), stating your team name, BBO usernames of the pairs in the team, and which session you prefer (earlier or later, either or both). If you want, you can play in both sessions, assuming we have enough opposing ACOL teams.
Each team can have more than 2 pairs, but there will be only 2 stanzas, the captains should inform us which pair plays in which session.
Captains, please get basic CC from each pair, and indicate it when registering the team.

You can also register here in forums, just make a post as reply to this topic.
Even if you are just a pair, please post here on forums and match up with another pair to form the team. Or as a single player, just say you'd like to play, and in which session, we'll try pair you up with another single member : )

- * - GOOD LUCK IAC - * -
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: Curls77 on July 17, 2022, 12:26:18 PM: Confirmed registrations:

Early slot: 1100 UTC

TEAM: Double Down
CAPTAIN: djc11
djc11 & V2008 (modified precision, CC included)
Esji & Rtadep (2/1 udca, CC included)
and TEAM: Goldie will be merged
TEAM: Goldie
CAPTAIN: Rebekahm
Rebekahm & DrAculea
Annwann & Srdjandj

TEAM: Across the Border
CAPTAIN: blubayou
Salty1945 & blubayou
Hi Bye & palych(?)

Later slot: 1900 UTC

TEAM: Across the Border
CAPTAIN: blubayou
RQ4mulae & blubayou
Peuco & Palych

TEAM: Avengers
CAPTAIN: jojah45
jojah45 & thornbury
Rebekahm & Rober_t

TEAM: The Wacko's
CAPTAIN: Wackojack
CCR3 & Kenberg
Masse24 & Wackojack

TEAM: OCP
CAPTAIN: brian_m
oliverc & p0stm0rtem (Complex version of OCP, http://ocp.pigpen.org.uk)
brian_m & morvix (Complex version of OCP, http://ocp.pigpen.org.uk)

(withdrawn to help us have equal numbers of teams on both sides, thanks Jerry!)
TEAM: TEA
CAPTAIN: dbrgjerry
dbrgjerry & harry18 (2/1 udca)
Linxu01 & powerduck (2/1 udca)

Last updated: August 3 - Registrations are now CLOSED
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: Masse24 on July 18, 2022, 11:37:48 AM: I checked with Joe. Due to family obligations, he is unable to play.
However, I would still play if needed (though I need a partner).
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: blubayou on July 18, 2022, 05:41:35 PM: Across the Border early slot penciled in with Salty1945+BLU, and Hi Bye + palych(?)

2nd heat wll be Peuco and Palych with RQFormulae and BLU
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: jojah45 on July 23, 2022, 04:44:36 PM: jojah45 and thornbury can play in the later time slot under the team name - Avengers

We are looking for another pair to join us.
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: Curls77 on July 24, 2022, 07:14:55 PM: Quote from: jojah45 on July 23, 2022, 04:44:36 PM
jojah45 and thornbury can play in the later time slot under the team name - Avengers
We are looking for another pair to join us.
I added Avengers team and we are looking for another pair.
Maybe Todd, from quote before can join?

Quote from: Masse24 on July 18, 2022, 11:37:48 AM
I checked with Joe. Due to family obligations, he is unable to play.
However, I would still play if needed (though I need a partner).
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: Masse24 on July 24, 2022, 08:54:01 PM: I just committed to playing with Jack. Teammates will be Ken/Pat.
That's all I know. :)
I do not even know team name.
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: kenberg on July 24, 2022, 09:33:09 PM: Quote from: Masse24 on July 24, 2022, 08:54:01 PM
I just committed to playing with Jack. Teammates will be Ken/Pat.
That's all I know. :)
I do not even know team name.

Jack can be in charge of names. The Wackos?

It would be good if the four of us could have a game sometime. Perhaps we could use zoom and chat between hands? We could play a team game with four robots at the other table and that way we could chat much or as little as we please.
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: wackojack on July 25, 2022, 08:48:53 AM: OK I will email Sanya officially our registration.

Team: The Wacko's
Captain: Wackojack
CCR3 + Kenberg
Masse24+ Wackojack

Apologies to Vee who approached me later to play in the team and had to reject.

Knowing that there are others who are interested in playing I hope Vee can make up another team. Alternatively I am happy to play also in the earlier slot to make up a team if necessary.
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: rebekahm on July 27, 2022, 02:17:00 PM: Early slot: 1100 UTC

TEAM: Goldie
CAPTAIN: Rebekahm
Rebekahm & DrAculea
Annwann & Srdjandj
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: brian_m on July 28, 2022, 12:21:16 PM: I have an OCP team.

OliverC and p0stm0rtem
brian_m and morvix

Let's just keep the name simple and stick with OCP

I'll do the captain's job

Brian.
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: Curls77 on July 28, 2022, 09:45:11 PM: I think these are all teams we can take, lets just please be sure we fill up any still missing names before Wednesday.

TEAM CAPTAINS, please find out system/leads/carding your players play, so I can include that info when we start matching you against ACOL opps.

You all have been wonderful this month, I thank you so much !H - we can close registrations by Wed prior to match. And on Friday, we'll send you info who will play against whom, what system etc.

GOOD LUCK IAC! :)
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: kenberg on August 01, 2022, 01:42:31 PM: I can say that CCR3 and I will be playing 2/1 and udca, with pretty much standard leads. ""pretty much" is because "standard" means different things to different people. I have been too busy to have a lengthy discussion so I am the reason I can't yet give details but Pat is up for discussion and we will try to get it straight and then post it. A typical issue that needs discussion: If we agree, as we might, that X over their NT is conventional if the NT is strong and penalty if their NT is weak then we have to decide what range of NT is which. I usually treat their 13-15Nt as strong, 12-14 as weak, but that's just one of the many things we need to discuss. My days have been a bit hectic lately but we will get to it.
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: kenberg on August 03, 2022, 11:45:40 AM: OK, Pat and I had a long talk yesterday. Here is a brief version of what we play:

2/1
Not strict Walsh, but in response to 1C we might well skip over a four card diamond suit to get to a major and maybe skip over a five card diamond suit when holding only modes values.
15-17 opening NT, including balanced hands with a five card major. As far as I know, a six card minor but of course with no singleton is also a possible 1NT opener.

Opening leads are fourth best, not requiring an honor. Later in the hand a low card lead suggests some strength in the suit. We lead a from AK against suits, again that's at trick 1. We didn't discuss it but for me later leads from AKxx would usually be the K.

I'm not sure how much detail you have in mind but this summary gives the general idea. We have a cc filled out.

Of course there are some things we didn't get to. But we are off to a reasonable start.
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: wackojack on August 05, 2022, 04:57:09 PM: I have now completed a BBO cc for Todd and I. Playing 2/1 UDCA
I note that there is little room for detail.
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: Curls77 on August 06, 2022, 12:45:28 PM: CAPTAINS, I sent you all mail, same as here below, if you missed it or ended in your spam folder.

This month we have a new problem. Being August, most UK players are away on holidays, and ACOL could not get enough teams to match all ours.
We have 2 options:
a) Other teams accept pairs from above mentioned teams, to play in one of stanzas within their team. Double Down team already expressed good will to do that.
v) If this is not possible, I will have no alternative but apologize and dismiss those 2 teams. I will not call random team to fill up the match, because most likely we'll get quitters and match will end up cancelled, frustrating everyone.

I am sorry this info comes so late. Please see this file ( https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YFSwtN47jjccV_02e2L8yBWH1SAVPlld/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YFSwtN47jjccV_02e2L8yBWH1SAVPlld/view?usp=sharing) ), and if your team is willing to accept Goldie's and Tea's pairs, please reply here, CCd to all. I'll have to know before 0900utc tomorrow (Sunday, 5am NY, 10am London)

Please be sure all players are online and ready to start playing 10 minutes before scheduled start time. Also, please tell players to NOT be engaged in another game, BBO changed team matches setup and now we can NOT invite any player that is playing elsewhere, even solitaire.
Have your system, leads, carding agreed and announce when you meet the opponents. All artificial bids must be alerted by meaning, not convention name.

Wishing IAC teams best of luck and lotsa fun for all!

Hugs, Sanya (Curls77)
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: kenberg on August 06, 2022, 03:14:13 PM: Quote from: wackojack on August 05, 2022, 04:57:09 PM
I have now completed a BBO cc for Todd and I. Playing 2/1 UDCA
I note that there is little room for detail.

This lack of room is a serious problem.
In describing our system I forgot to mention CCR3 and I play five card majors. Of course we do, but for ACOLs it probably is worth mentioning. It is on our card. We also play strong NT (15-17) and udca.

Since, at least so far, I haven't a clue as to what our opponents will be playing ( 4 card majors? weak NT?, how weak?) it would be useful to have maybe five minutes or so to read their cc before the first hand appears. I don't know if that is easy to arrange.
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: palych on August 06, 2022, 06:27:56 PM: With this number of teams, should we organize IAC teams championship?

Like round robin over few months?

Sorry for off topic :)
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: Curls77 on August 06, 2022, 07:05:25 PM: Quote from: palych on August 06, 2022, 06:27:56 PM
With this number of teams, should we organize IAC teams championship?
Like round robin over few months?
Sorry for off topic :)

We used to have Team and Pair League, but tools to keep all automatic stopped working, and we simply can not find anyone to make a working tool for it.
And some years ago, we did have Team series, where week after week IAC teams would play Round Robin. Same here, the tool stopped working. Setting this up is not hard, but keeping clear scores and who opps whom next week is not as easy if done manually.

Too bad - we need someone to make a tool.
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: Curls77 on August 06, 2022, 07:13:21 PM: Quote from: kenberg on August 06, 2022, 03:14:13 PM
This lack of room is a serious problem.
(...)
Since, at least so far, I haven't a clue as to what our opponents will be playing ( 4 card majors? weak NT?, how weak?) it would be useful to have maybe five minutes or so to read their cc before the first hand appears. I don't know if that is easy to arrange.

All ACOL players play standard ACOL, except only 1 pair -- Gbs1 & Kaltstart (5 card majors & strong NT)
In 1st stanza, 1st listed IAC pair will be NS, playing against 2nd listed ACOL pair. In second stanza you get the other pair for opponents.
You can check their play records in BBO's myhands or contact their Captain before the match and get more details.
Also, when the match starts, you are not rushed - you are allowed to spend a few minutes to state your system, hear about theirs and ask questions if you have any. But be reasonable pls - none wants full discussion how partnership deals with XYZ or modified Drury, for example.
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: kenberg on August 07, 2022, 01:20:26 PM: A question:

The auction begins 1NT(12-14)-X(penaty, starting around 15hcps)?
What happens next?

I realize they have the next bid. Hereare a couple of possibilities
1NT-X-Pass
1NT-X-Xx

Ini my (lmited0 experience against th weak NT different pairs play that beginning very differently.

Maybe 1NT-X-Pass means "nothing to say" and 1NT-X-XX means values.
Other times, against other pairs, 1NT-X-XX is the start of a run and 1NT-X-Pass forces XX from opener if fourth hand passes.

Are there simple written suggestions somewhere for handling either of these developments? I would rather not try to re-invent the wheel between now and game time.
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: kenberg on August 07, 2022, 11:58:50 PM: Congrats to the acol team and best wishes for the future.
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: yleexotee on August 08, 2022, 01:30:12 AM: @ken: Here is something I put together with Doug Smix. It is beautifully named Coyote Run-outs...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13LmBP_PkS1cgeEgS35ccnT7dOXc37azi-xt61E4IhsM/edit?usp=sharing
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: kenberg on August 08, 2022, 01:47:33 AM: Quote from: yleexotee on August 08, 2022, 01:30:12 AM
@ken: Here is something I put together with Doug Smix. It is beautifully named Coyote Run-outs...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13LmBP_PkS1cgeEgS35ccnT7dOXc37azi-xt61E4IhsM/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks, I will think about it. It turned out that the pair we were playing in the second half were playing strong no trumps. They probably said so but I did not realize it until board 6 where the auction went 1D-1H-1NT-2NT-Pass. Opener and responded each had a 12 count. The opponents of the first half were playing weak NT.

Often that's the way it is. Someone constructs an exotic idea such as Coyote Run-outs but in the practical world I fail to notice this pair is playing strong NT not weak NT.

No harm was done, I just find the gap between theory and practice to be something of a chasm. I recently learned an amusing variant on an old saw "That's fine in practice but how does it work in theory?"
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: wackojack on August 08, 2022, 08:54:16 AM: Good Acol weak no trump players have a well rehearsed run out to a penalty double. It is similar in many ways to the Coyote run out but somewhat simpler. See Halmic or Helvic on their convention card.
https://www.bridgewebs.com/porthcawl/HALMIC%20DEFENCE%20TO%201NT%20DOUBLED.htm
https://www.bridgewebs.com/northfield/Helvic%20-%20one%20no%20trump%20doubled.pdf

One of the good things about theese challenge matches from the iac pov is the exposure that iac players get to unfamiliar bidding situations.

Another situation that we in iac would do well to have experience of is the 2 way 2 club opening bid which is popular this side of the pond and is banned? on the other side. A 2C opening bid is either a weak 2 in diamonds or a normal strong artificial 2C that we are all familiar with. Partner of the 2C open is obliged to respond 2D (unless very very strong) and opener passes if it is a weak 2D or continues bidding if strong. We lost out when it came up at the other table in our match.

You may ask what advantage (besides its anfamiliarity) does this convention give?
Answer: It releases an opening of 2D to be used for other purposes. Usually in my experience:
2D = A weak 2 in a major
2M = weak with a 5card major and 4 plus cards in an unspecified minor. (Officially called Muiderberg or Dutch 2 or sometimes erroniously called a Lucas 2)
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: kenberg on August 08, 2022, 01:19:57 PM: There was a time in m life when I played more and encountered a greater variety of systems. With regard to the system over 1NT-X it says, for the opener, "If partner (the responder to the 1NT), passes – you must re-double". This was one of my favorite agreements to run up against. Often third hand had a flat hand with little or no values and we were about to get a good result no matter where they ran to. I played weak NT with someone for a while and once found myself in that situation. Partner opened 1NT, Rho doubled, I passed, opener redoubled, I bid 2C, doubled, then 2D doubled and so on. I miraculously got a good result. The opponents complained that my bidding was misleading because my first bid of 2C was on a three-card suit. I explained that I decided to start with clubs and stop at the first suit that wasn't doubled. It worked. If neither of them doubled my 2H bid that was their choice.

Anyway, I agree. It's fun and interesting to deal with unfamiliar systems.

The 2C opening that you spoke of came up on the last hand of the second set. Everyone vul, imps, I am holding

S: QJ64
H: 85
D: K852
C: KQ9

Rho deals and passes, I pass, Lho opens 2C alerted as either weak with diamonds or a big hand. Partner doubles. Undiscussed but I sure hope that's a club suit, Rho passes, I pass, Lho bids 2D, alerted as the weak D call. Rho passes. Ok, this is an opportunity. I know more about pard's hand than if Lho had opened 2D followed by two passes. Pard has clubs (yes, undiscussed as I said but I hope she does and she does) and presumably some other values since a shaggy club suit is not enough to warrant the X if my Lho has the big hand and I have zip. So, now what? Well I got it wrong. We can make 3C and we can make 2NT but my choice was 3NT, off 1. It might have worked. Some days optimism works, some days we should stick with pessimism.
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: wackojack on August 08, 2022, 02:24:43 PM: I have to say that I have sympathy with the bidding and I might have done the same with both hands. These are my later thoughts:
Game all West opens 2 !C
!S A102
!H 763
!D A10
!C AJ832

S: QJ64
H: 85
D: K852
C: KQ9

Double? Intuitively this has to be showing a club suit. If opener has strong 2 !C it is only a lead director if East becomes declarer which is very unlikley. It does not have a 4 card major and so there appears no advantage to letting 2 !D by East to be passed around to you. So a double is likley to be saying "I have a hand that wants to compete so worth an opening bid and likely no 4 card major and certainly not 4-3(4) in the majors" North has a good 13 points with 5 clubs and 3-3 in the majors and so qualifies for a double.
Pass and wait? No because you cannot double 2 !D and cannot compete at the 3 level.

Round to South after 2 !C-(dbl) - ?
2NT? A balance 11 count with no aces? I partner has 5 clubs and 12 or so points 8 tricks may be all we can take.
3NT? If partner has 6 clubs missing the K and Q and 12 or so points we could easily have 9 tricks.

A finely balanced decision. Alas 3NT was the losing decision losing us the match. As at our table partner's weak 2 !D opening bid was passed out going 1 off. Beating par but losing 5 imps and thus the match.
Title: Re: IAC vs ACOL - Challenge #6 Sunday August 7th
Post by: Curls77 on August 08, 2022, 03:58:47 PM: Quote from: wackojack on August 08, 2022, 08:54:16 AM
One of the good things about theese challenge matches from the iac pov is the exposure that iac players get to unfamiliar bidding situations.

That's so true Jack : ) And I hope everyone is having fun, regardless of the results.
Funny coincidence in 1st session, where each Club won one match with exactly + 65 imps!!

Thanks to all that participated in 6th AUGUST Challenge : ) Warm Cudos to IAC winning teams:
* Double Down & Goldie (Captain: djc11): djc11 & V2008 + Esji & Rtadep and Rebekahm & DrAculea + Annwann & Srdjandj
* Avengers (Captain: jojah45): jojah45 & thornbury + Rebekahm & rober t

Big thanks to good sportsmanship of all players from Double Down and Goldie's team that merged into one, so that everyone could play.
PDFs of all matches, as well as travellers, can be found in IAC Drive, the link is: https://tinyurl.com/mrycy7fz (https://tinyurl.com/mrycy7fz)